Since October 7, more than 3,257 children have been reported killed, including at least 3,195 in Gaza, 33 in the West Bank, and 29 in Israel, according to the Ministries of Health in Gaza and Israel respectively. The number of children reported killed in just three weeks in Gaza is more than the number killed in armed conflict globally – across more than 20 countries – over the course of a whole year, for the last three years.
Yet some people still claim Israel is the victim! When the truth is that Israel is a terrorist state.
The ol’ “you shot me in the foot so I burnt down your neighborhood and killed your entire extended family” defense. Unbeatable in the court of law.
I agree, except I think Israel is the one to both start and end this.
I burnt down your house and killed your family, but because you shot me in the foot, I’ll burn down your neighborhood and kill your entire extended family.Don’t forget how they’ll cry to all their friends and relatives that they were the victims all along.
That one doesn’t hold up as well in court though…
there’s a history of violence on both sides since the post-ww2 era. no one really has time or any real inclination to attend court
Ah the ol’ “history of violence and I’ve got more killing to do, so ain’t no time for court” defense. An interesting strategy. Suppose it depends on the judge.
it’s got more to do with the accused/accuser - neither are going to visit a courtroom (ie: the hague).
come on man, you’re not even following the format of the joke here.
People see will see these numbers and still argue “they are showing restraint, if Israel was really evil they would just carpet bomb them all.” Like what the fuck is this then?
This excuse of “how is it genocide if there are still Palestinians alive? huh?” is such bullshit. Yes, let’s wait for Israel to kill the very last Palestinian before we can bring out our memorials and cry over the genocide.
“The Nazis are killing Jews? Why would they put them on train cars then and have them work? Wouldn’t they just shoot them or bomb them right there? I don’t think it’s really as big a deal as it seems.” -American in 1940
Ministries of Health in Gaza is Operated by Hamas, so it would not be outlandish to say these numbers are being inflated in order to push public opinion and international support
“Hamas has now been in charge of Gaza for 16 years. It has squeezed the life out of honesty and probity. Any health official stepping out of line and not giving the death tolls that Hamas wants reported to journalists risks serious consequences. I’m not denying there are civilians being killed. At all, including many children. That’s verifiable. What is not verifiable are the numbers that emerge throughout the day from Gaza of new death tolls — 700 killed in the last 24 hours, 500 killed in the Ahli hospital car park blast, 5,000 killed since October 8. Hamas has a clear propaganda incentive to inflate civilian casualties as much as possible. There was a time when the figures from the ministry could be relied upon. The doctors and administrators knew what they were doing.”
This is an area of credibility that is still up in the air with reliable sources claiming that it is both reliable and unreliable numbers that are being published. However none of it though dismisses the fact that innocents are dying from Israel’s War with Hamas, innocents that contain children
Historically they stand up to even Israels secondary verification. From the AP:
“The numbers may not be perfectly accurate on a minute-to-minute basis,” said Michael Ryan, of the World Health Organization’s Health Emergencies Program. “But they largely reflect the level of death and injury.”
In previous wars, the ministry’s counts have held up to U.N. scrutiny, independent investigations and even Israel’s tallies.Historically is not the same as current: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/24/hamas-israel-death-toll-health-ministry-trustworthy-reuters/
“Hamas has now been in charge of Gaza for 16 years. It has squeezed the life out of honesty and probity. Any health official stepping out of line and not giving the death tolls that Hamas wants reported to journalists risks serious consequences. I’m not denying there are civilians being killed. At all, including many children. That’s verifiable. What is not verifiable are the numbers that emerge throughout the day from Gaza of new death tolls — 700 killed in the last 24 hours, 500 killed in the Ahli hospital car park blast, 5,000 killed since October 8. Hamas has a clear propaganda incentive to inflate civilian casualties as much as possible. There was a time when the figures from the ministry could be relied upon. The doctors and administrators knew what they were doing.”
It’s a bit more complicated than that no?
No it is not and all the douche saying “hu it is a bit more complicated” are just full of crap. This is smoke and mirrors. There’s no fucking sense, legitimization to their campaign on civilians, just fucking no.
No, it’s not complicated at all actually.
If you find it not complicated then you are either uneducated and not impartial
I hope for the former and that you will educate yourself (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli–Palestinian_conflict)
Apartheid is not complicated. Sorry if that’s hard for you to understand.
Article 34 of the 1949 Geneva Convention IV states that the taking of hostages is prohibited
I’m sorry that you are so clouded by hate
Israel is an apartheid state. Apartheid is the root cause of the entire conflict. It’s also illegal under international law. This isn’t hard.
I agree. But Israel’s apartheid actions are not just cause to enact rocket strikes, torture, suicide attacks, mass taking of hostages, mass attacks on innocents, or the beheading of children
It is hard, because there is no one side that has so far not committed a war crime
It’s becoming quite simple…
Only if you are intellectually lazy and morally stupid.
How? Out of all middle east states, Israel is the only one where human rights are a thing.
I am not saying everything Israel does is great (especially in East Jerusalem) but the attacker is Hamas. They are the aggressor and have to be removed for good. Just like all terrorists.
I think it’s naive to think you can eradicate Hamas. The Brits couldn’t eliminate the IRA in Northern Ireland, nor could the Soviets eliminate the mujahideen. The US and French failed with the Viet Kong. The US just gave up on the Taliban…
I have to agree with this. However, I still believe it should be weakened as much as possible.
no victims, right. https://lemmy.world/post/7539955
Obviously there are individual victims, but as a nation Israel is mostly responsible as those who have all the power.
Having power = the ones responsible?
They have no power in Gaza. They haven’t had any for the last 15 years. The ones in control of Gaza and its population id Hamas, and the ones who doesn’t take care of poor Palestinians is Hamas. And the ones who get foreign aid and uses it for rockets instead of infrastructure is Hamas.
Power != Responsibility. Life isn’t spiderman.
Israel has all the power over Gaza. They control who or what goes in and out. The way Palestinians have been treated I’m not surprised at all that they have ended up with extremist leaders.
They control everything in and out huh… Does that include the rockets and anti-tank ammunition Hamas has?
Give me a break. They had a free hand running their own region for over a decade, and that’s what came out of it. Lots of military means - zero safe zones for civilians.
They are using way superior power only to oppress, that’s why they have more responsibility.
They use their power only when needed, which is very frequently given that their neighbors advocate for civilians giving away their lives to serve a religious ideology, meaning they’re under a constant threat on their safety.
Yes, they’re more powerful. But no, they don’t only oppress using it. If they did, you’d have what china did to their muslim minority. The use of power is large, but not disproportionate to their level of security risk.
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No one is launching the nukes, because, well…first that’s not how nuclear deterrence works, like, at all. And second, most of the people with nukes are in favor of and support Israel. You are so off base in your comprehension of global geopolitics.
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It’s not interesting actually, it seems to be what is happening now and it’s sickening.
Westerner are immoral The US is in command 🏞️🌅🇵🇸🔜🔏
Well they are the victims of a terror attack by the Hamas and have a right to defend themselves also not by any means of course…this conflict has two participants who are equally involved in this conflict, your point of view seems quite one sided to me.
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Of course they are also the victim. Hamas slaughtered adults and children with no remorse. Now Israel is returning the favor.
Both sides are aggressors and victims.
If someone shoots your dog and then you go to their house and shoot their dog. Are you justified? Perhaps. But you are still shooting a dog. And that makes you a dog killer.
2 wrongs do not make a right. Never will.
yeah they aren’t shootin up the dog, they are slaughtering their entire family and burning their home, the proportions are a bit off here
Isn’t that what the commenter above you just said.
both sides are the victims and the aggressors.
How many Americans were killed by Nazi Germany vs the other way around?
Intentions and moral frameworks matter, not only the sheer numbers of casualties.
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Hey, don’t you bring Billy Talent into this
I actually like Billy Talent too 😄🙃
Israel is the terrorist.
Hamas are the terrorists preventing citizens from fleeing and using them as shields. They are at fault. Israel is not targeting civilians they are targeting Hamas outposts which Hamas purposefully puts in civilian zones hoping for protection.
Hamas literally wants to wipe all Jewish people from existence and started to do so. So far every one of the stories of what Hamas did to the Jewish folks has turned out to be true. Most of the Hamas ones have turned out to be bs.
Let’s be clear. Jews haven’t lived in Gaza since 2005. Gaza was given millions and millions of dollars in aid and supplies since. Instead of building a flourishing society, they built tunnels, bombs, and shoot rockets daily at Israel trying to kill Jews even though they don’t live in Gaza. There are no “colonizing settlers” for nearly 2 decades.
Enough is enough. Peace is not an option here it’s just a blanket that the bad guys use (and break the treaties for) all the time just to get a reprieve when sht gets real.
Oh cut the crap
Hamas is a terrorist organization, Israel is a terrorist state. Both are and have been fucking awful since their inception.
Let’s go with that. Even though it’s twisted logic.
If Israel is a terrorist state that still means that Hamas is going after non government officials and it is still wrong. Unless you buy into the logic that the citizens of Israel are guilty as well as they should have done something to stop the so called terrorist state actions. Sure. Let’s go with that. By that logic, so are the citizens of Gaza and thus nothing is fucked up as they are all guilty.
Or the more likely, the guys shooting rockets daily made out of supplies from foreign aid money and keeping basic supplies from their citizens are actually bad guys and terrible people and their propaganda is bullshit.
It all falls apart when you look at the differences. Israel even if it’s selfish government reasons to do it have been taking care to protect it’s citizens where it can. Hamas however has rejected multiple peace attempts, broken the cease fires nearly every time, and keeps supplies from their citizens then goes on the internet posting about how their hospitals have no fuel when they have a huge stockpile.
Even if they are oppressed and colonized people who are only being freedom fighters (they aren’t). Under zero context there’s no reason to side with them other than some narrow sense of virtue signalling .
If they were going full Arab spring and trying to regain their freedom maybe, but they are literally out there in the streets spitting on the corpses of women. Everywhere. And I’m sure some Israeli would do the same because they are fucked up too. But not at this scale.
The guys shooting rockets at civillians are the bad guys. No matter whether they are Hamas or IDF
You don’t think the literal wall that has everyone in Graza literally trapped inside Gaza might have something to do with why there are so many civilians there?
Netanyahu quoted from First Samuel 15:3, saying, “You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. ‘Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys’” The invocation of this biblical passage serves not only as a historical reference but also as a genocidal lens through which the Prime Minister views the current conflict.
Who is saying they literally want to wipe who off the earth again?
Where is the IDF headquarters located? How many civilians are they hiding behind??
No, I think once your people have been genocided you automatically pass all ethics checks.
This is how you ensure there’s another generation of radicalized individuals to have to combat.
Not if you kill them all…
A common thing to do back in the day was to not only kill the king, but the members of his family. (Especially the sons). It’s brutal, but effective
(And obviously humans should be above that in 2023, but here we are)
Netanyahu quoted from First Samuel 15:3, saying, “You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. ‘Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys’”
The invocation of this biblical passage serves not only as a historical reference but also as a genocidal lens through which the Prime Minister views the current conflict.
It’s tragic how often the abused become the abusers.
I’ve has mixed feelings about this conflict for a while now. On one hand I understand the need to preserve a people, culture and way of life especially given that aformentioned people was nearly exterminated in the wost ways. On the other hand… wt actual f. Little children don’t support Hamas. They’re blameless in this, and to murder so many innocents just to get to the enemy is sickening
But mentioning it makes you an antisemite, the ADL told me so!
Fun fact, Palestinians are semites. All Arabs are
They speak a semitic language, and that’s not what anyone’s talking about when they refer to anti-Semitism
While the phenomenon of blaming valid criticism as antisemitism exists, the counter claim which you made is now completely weaponised.
In this entire thread, you’re the only person that mentioned antisemitism and the vast majority of the comments are very one sided in criticising Israel.
First of all, sarcasm bro
Second, the ADL specifically is notorious for including any anti-zionist action as an antisemitic incident, even when carried out by other Jews.
First of all, sarcasm bro
Sorry mate, so many layers and seriously made wild claims that it’s becoming really hard to detect…
To make it perfectly clear - the fact that children are dying is reprehensible and it should be stopped. Even if one innocent child died, from both sides, it’s one too many.
That being said, this is a very good example of propaganda by partial information and numbers manipulations.
The UN report in question identifies anyone under the age of 18 as a child. The Al-Qassam brigades recruit teens from the age of 16 to active combative roles (some reports suggest an even younger age).
It’s impossible to know how many of these 3,257 children are actually children and how many are armed teens, and the UN report references that. The propaganda completely ignores this part and reframes this information as if more than 3,000 young and innocent children were slain.
A worldwide charity that’s existed for 100 years, whose exclusive mission is trying to save children from war, is a very good example of propaganda? Please explain this, because you say that one is too many but then you say “don’t fall for this guys, it’s not nearly that many.”
Are you saying it’s ok to murder minors because they’re armed? Are you saying that’s why these minors were murdered? Do you have proof of this? Because your statements seem to be the ones which are unfounded and sound a lot like propaganda to excuse the murder of thousands of children.A common tactic by propagandists is to call inconvenient information propaganda. It’s like how fascists tend to blame their opponents for engaging in behavior that only the fascists are actually engaging in.
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Eh, I generally feel like anything aimed at people under 18 in the context of an air bombardment is still not a justifiable murder. I’m with ya, Hamas fucked up. What they did is indefensible, but also taking a life from someone who hasn’t even had the opportunity to understand the world and the chance to make those bigger decisions from a grown place yet is very wrong to me.
If it’s a battle, back and forth, firing guns, kill or be killed, I guess that’s just how it shakes out. I don’t expect someone to just let themselves be shot there by a minor (whether they should be there is another story, but ok). But If you just have suspicions this kid is an enemy, or you see them with a gun, or hell you even have solid evidence that kid has been recruited as a child soldier, I don’t think you get to judge them with death by bomb outside the moment. That’s part of what’s so difficult in discussing or defining what constitutes a child soldier or a legitimate target. These kids already got robbed of so much in their ability to live a normal childhood. In America countless black kids were cast as “super predators” in the 90’s in much the same way. I respect where your coming from and don’t doubt your sincerity but believe we just have a difference of opinion on this matter.
According to this NPR article, the age range both you and the commenter are describing (15-19) represents 10.6% of the male population. The combined totals below them = 40.8% of the population. So what, a fifth = 639 of them in that age range died. Then what percentages of those deaths are militants? Say 50% So 320? Out of 3,195?
Obviously you can’t account for distribution and other factors without further info, but still I think that it’s more right than it is wrong then by any stretch of the imagination. You’ve stated similar stuff up the thread but I just don’t feel like to cast this as propaganda by numbers manipulation or partial information is a statement that can be taken at face value, given that the lack of numbers and information are a byproduct of intentional suppression by the power committing the offensive.
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A totally fair point. You spoil us all with your reasonable, genial demeanor and commitment to calling out bias.
Just one inaccuracy - there were no settlers in Gaza for nearly 20 years.
That’s not inaccurate. He said Palestine. That’s more than just Gaza, it’s the West Bank+ as well. And they have been under absolutely relentless attacks (and murders) by settlers, especially since the 7th. Even though they are divided, they are one people. It’s not like those kids in Gaza don’t know that.
I was referring to “It’s small wonder that people support Hamas and children join the only force that seems to be fighting for them”.
There’s little love (and that’s a huge understatement) between Hamas and the PLO and children in the west bank rarely join Hamas.
Hamas is a terrorist group.
Israel isn’t an equivalent. Its a fully fledged nation state with sophisticated military and intelligence agency. Israel’s behaviour should be measured based on how a nation state should act. Not a terrorist group.
If you think Israel is justified in killing children because Hama’s did. Your arguing Israel is a terrorist state, just one your sympathetic to.
I don’t think we should compare Israel to the standards we hold for terrorists. Because we don’t have any standards for terrorists. Additionally Israel’s capability for killing far exceeds what Hamad can achieve.
All the deaths due to the recent Hamas attack is the best Hamas can do. How many people could Israel kill, probably all 2 million in the Gaza strip.
Extremist Christians and extremist Zionists have wanted this for a long time. Only tempered by the west’s intolerance for mass killing. Since the Hamas attack the US and UK have both morally approved of moving into to Gaza.
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A worldwide charity that’s existed for 100 years, whose exclusive mission is trying to save children from war, is a very good example of propaganda
Absolutely, 100%. Human rights organisations are not unbiased news outlets - they have agendas and objectives. Their objectives are commendable ones, and the work they do is invaluable, but they still utilise propaganda as a means to an end. As good and important as this end is, their reports should be received with the same amount of caution and critical thinking as any report coming from anyone with an objective in this.
you say that one is too many but then you say “don’t fall for this guys, it’s not nearly that many
That’s just a straw man. I never suggested that it’s not that many. It can be 3,257 and it could be 0. I just pointed out the information manipulation.
Are you saying it’s ok to murder minors because they’re armed
It’s never ok, but unfortunately this is war and war is shit. An ak47 in the hands of a 12 years old can kill just as well as one in the hands of a 20 years old.
Another point for you to consider is that traditionally, in the Philippines, Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq, Cambodia, many regions of Africa and essentially wherever there were children-soldiers, the ones that indoctrinated them, trained them and placed firearms in their hands were the ones who were blamed for their deaths.
You seem to hold Israel as the only one accountable for it.
So could you clarify your point:
- “kill every kid that’s holding a gun, no matter the age”, or
- kill kids between 16-18 as long as they hold a gun I am really curious.
And while at it, could you please clarify the morality of killing kids in their beds by bombing the houses they are living in? Or we should just preemptively kill any kid as they might turn into future terrorists.
Oh and by the way, I am pretty sure the Palestinian population are viewing the Israelian as terrorists and Hamas as liberators the same way you see Palestinians and IDF. So the terrorist designation all depends on the point of view and who’s in charge.
Not defending Hamas, giving you just some food for thought maybe and if you disagree with this statement, could you provide me a definition of a terrorist and try to apply it through the eye of the regular Gazan.
I really couldn’t say in this case, and I’m very happy that I’m not the one that has to make this choice . Quite a few soldiers in conflict areas lost their lives because they couldn’t either.
And while at it, could you please clarify the morality of killing kids in their beds by bombing the houses they are living in?
Read my first sentence in the original message.
So the terrorist designation all depends on the point of view and who’s in charge
There’s point of view and there is the international law. The legal terms is that the IDF is a country’s military and as such it is expected to uphold international treaties, it is held to high standards and it receives a lot scrutiny when it goes out of line or makes mistakes. Hamas is a terror organisation and therefore none of this applies to it, but also killing its operatives is not considered murder or a war crime.
If you’re asking for my personal opinion - it’s about intent. Organisations that have the clear intentions to kill and hurt as many civilians as possible are clearly terrorist organisations. Internationally recognised organisations that do not and try to minimise civilians casualties are not. Everything in between is a case by case gray area.
I can’t attest to what the average person in Gaza thinks, but I reckon after 20 years of Hamas rule a lot of the people are already indoctrinated and their world view, specifically regarding Jewish people, is at least somewhat detached from reality. This is clearly reflected in the pro Palestinian Arabic social media profiles.
The terrorist designation of a group is specific to the countries calling that group a terrorist group. Most nations of the world actually do not designate Hamas as a terror group. There is still a responsibility for a state military to adhere to international laws of conflict when engaging a non-state group.
Making even Palestinian children look like potential terrorists is the real propaganda here. Easier to kill a child if you think they could be a soldier. You’re not able to confirm this nor can anyone, but you are prepared to go on this “hunch”, make children of Gaza less like children and more like military so that killing them is easier to stomach.
The only way to deescalate is to give Palestinians justice. There is no benefit to Israel from carpet bombing Gaza
They are the ones dropping the bombs on them in a city they surrounded with walls? When should they be held to account for these virtual murders? This is an offensive action, not a defensive one. These kids aren’t coming at soldiers in waves, they’re being crushed under rubble from bombs dropping on the places they are attempting to find safety. Whole families dying like that.
You need to get out of whatever echo chamber you’re in.
Sorry, the only echos I hear is the horrified screams of children getting bombs dropped on them as they starve and die of thirst in Gaza. Maybe help them get out?
What do you mean? You can watch it happening, it’s not a secret. There aren’t attacks on Israel right now, they aren’t being invaded, Gazans are pinned in a box being slaughtered in one of the densest cities in the world.
What? Of course there are attacks on Israel right now.
There is ongoing mortar and rocket fire from Gaza on Israel
Also Lebanon fires rockets hitting Israel, in collaboration with Palestine
The death toll in Israel is lower because they have infrastructure that protects the civilians from the rockets.
While in Gaza the population is extremely dense with about 12000 people per square kilometre and no shelters.
Also Hamas wants civilians to stay in the zones because Hamas entire defense strategy depends on Israel killing civilians in Gaza. If that wasn’t happening, much less people would stand behind Palestine.
You can find here an analysis from the NATO on how Hamas uses “human shields”.
You do realise that Hamas is also dropping bombs on Israel the whole time, yes?
It’s impossible to know how many of these 3,257 children are actually children and how many are armed teens,
And if they were armed teens, should we kill them? The ministry of health published the numbers. You can choose whatever age you deem acceptable for the Qassam Brigades and do some math to get the “real” number of children victims, if you like.
It’s impossible to know how many of these 3,257 children are actually children and how many are armed teens,
All of them are fucking children. Everyone under 18 is a child. Stop this bullshit.
It’s disingenuous to suggest however there isn’t a difference between civilians and fighters. Either way though, yeah, they’re all children. I don’t know if it’s more horrifying for a child soldier to be killed vs a civilian child either. It’s two different kinds of horror.
Bigger font doesn’t make you more right.
You can choose whatever age you deem acceptable for the Qassam Brigades and do some math to get the “real” number of children victims
That’s just the thing with manipulating numbers - we can’t do the math. That’s why it’s so effective and why you need to apply critical reading to these kind of reports.
And if they were armed teens, should we kill them
Answer me this - say you have a group of people preparing to launch a rocket. That rocket is inaccurate but they aim it towards a city. There’s a high chance that you’ll be able to intercept it, but there’s always a chance that it’ll fall on a building and kill civilians.
You can target this group, drop a bomb on them and stop them from firing this rocket. Now you learn that 2 of them are 17 years old. Do you drop the bomb? Or do you let them fire the rocket?
In that example, I would be in prison because I refused to join the IDF.
So by avoiding any action you would allow them to fire the rocket.
I understand and respect that.
It’s a huge gray area and just one example of the complex morality component of this conflict.
By avoiding being part of the apartheid system of Israel, I’m one step in the right direction.
So idf should disarm and let their families and fellow countryment be slaughtered like lambs?
You are misrepresenting Israel’s options. It’s a logical fallacy. It’s not “kill or be killed”, and also seems like it’s very dangerous for the hostages that Israel does a ground invasion.
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The propaganda completely ignores this part and reframes this information as if more than 3,000 young and innocent children were slain.
The only thing that’s really propaganda here is your comment. A child conscripted to fight in a war is still a child, and no amount of pretending otherwise by propagandists like yourself will change that fact.
The only thing that’s really propaganda here is your comment
How so?
A child conscripted to fight in a war is still a child
I agree, but I’ll copy what I answered the other comment about this exactly: It’s never ok, but unfortunately this is war and war is shit. An ak47 in the hands of a 12 years old can kill just as well as one in the hands of a 20 years old.
in the Philippines, Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq, Cambodia, many regions of Africa and essentially wherever there were children-soldiers, the ones that indoctrinated them, trained them and placed firearms in their hands were the ones who were blamed for their deaths.
You seem to hold Israel as the only one accountable for it.
You just don’t get to throw up your hands and say “thats war.” This is not normal and should in no way be normalized (as you seem to be attempting to do.)
edit: a word
You’re ignoring the main points and attacking a straw man again.
no, just tired of your shtick
Reasoning? Critical thinking? Logic? Seeing things as complex rather than one side is 100% correct and the other is 100% at fault? Answering to the point instead of bombastic statements or disinformation aimed to trigger emotional responses?
Stop behaving like a fanatic.
Hey you’re the one who is suggesting we redefine what childhood is to excuse more of Israel’s crimes.
It’s neither reasonable nor logical to justify the murder of innocent children. And yet here you are…
Propaganda is what’s coming from your mouth.
“Not only is the child murder bad! It’s the worst it’s been since like 2019.” -the news.
I can just pray that war stops asap, cant see innocents dying…
Let’s pray for hamas immediate surrender and release of the hostages. EDIT: looks like the tankies are backing hamas.
Let’s hope Hamas releases the hostages and the state with one of the strongest military in the world backed by the most powerful nation in the world stop bombing kids that they have crammed into a tiny strip of land, and start working only actually solving the root of problem. Hamas’ greatest recruiter and radicaliser is Israel. The only side with the power to stop these atrocities from continuing for decades to come is Israel.
They are not bombing kids. they are bombing terrorists.
EDIT: TinyPizza, I am not affected by hamas propaganda so I’m not confused, I don’t need to reorient to align with hamas.
Sir. You might be lost. Could you please look at the title of the post and reorient yourself to your surroundings.
What a trash can of a heart you must have to call literal children for terrorists just because they were born on the wrong side of a border.
It’s possible to be against Hamas’ terrorist attacks and still have sympathy with the innocent civilians in Palestine you know?
I don’t conflate having sympathy with accusing israel of bombing children. They didn’t consider the children as targets they were collateral damage. But I can see how you feel they actually aimed for the children.
They didn’t consider the children as targets they were collateral damage.
As if the Israel military aren’t aware and don’t care about the “collateral” damage. One atrocity doesn’t excuse another.
That didn’t happen.
And if it did, it wasn’t that bad.
And if it was, that’s not a big deal.
And if it is, that’s not my fault.
And if it was, I didn’t mean it.
And if I did, you deserved it.
Sure thing, that doesn’t justify bombing civilians
I’m sure that Israel wants to hear about the viable alternatives no one is able to come up with so far. Let’s hear it.
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After Hamas’ actions on the 7th I don’t see Israel stepping back. Their previous attempts at curtailing Hamas were already under criticism for not going far enough, and that was before the largest attack in decades had occurred
A couple of videos I watched on the subject seem to clearly point at Israel being the aggressor. The existence of Hamas was directly caused by persistent aggression from the Isreali government.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv1SpwwJEW8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWvSxSEZ4WMFantastic Videos, and yes Israel has given more than enough cause for Palestinians to act against them. But none of them excuse the crimes that Hamas have committed both on Oct 7th and in the past as well
Idk, I think decades of serious suffering, oppression, and the looming threat of the annihilation of your people seems like just about as much justification as one could have. I feel like, to say otherwise is to tell the palestinians to shut up and take their genocide with a smile. Peace negotiations have and will get them nowhere, violence, as extreme as they can muster, is the only option they have left. Yet, it pales in comparison to what can be done back to them, and without intervention the state of palestine and its people will cease to be.
Hamas aren’t doing it for the Palestinian people, they aren’t the Palestinian liberators. Just tools to be used by aggressive Islamic nations like Iran to attack a Jewish state. Doesn’t mean Palestinians aren’t going Hamas in order to do such a thing but they then just become pawns in a conflict between two very right wing, authoritarian, theocratic sides.
yes genocide as a response to genocide is the only solution /s
Is that really how you read my comment, and the situation? Hamas couldn’t genocide shit, even if they wanted to. These countries, these people, are not on even ground. And if Hamas didn’t do something extreme, we wouldn’t be talking about it, no one would give a shit, and they’d go quietly into the history books like so many before them.
You are not a psychic, you can make any prediction you want but it will never achieve clairvoyance
Mass violence is NEVER a counter to mass violence
Was nothing learned from the non-violence movements?
Quietly into the history books, as the world’s first country of Palestine
The actual looming threat that Hamas attacked over was the PA enacting a two-state solution with Israel.
Hamas doesn’t care about Palestinians at all
Fuck off.
Netanyahu said “You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. 1 Samuel 15:3 ‘Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass’," .
You keep quacking like a nazi duck man…
You’re dumb as fuck lol
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He says, unironically, on an article about 3000 dead children. Gross.
How many children do you think the critics will accept as enough? Or does that number not matter because they aren’t Israeli children?Nope, doesn’t matter. Palestine = Hamas = bad, that’s what the news say.
Israel killed like 20 times more civilians than Hamas and nobody batted an eye for decades.
Its a war I don’t know what the fuck you want
Literally the post we are on:
The number of children reported killed in just three weeks in Gaza is more than the number killed in armed conflict globally – across more than 20 countries – over the course of a whole year, for the last three years.
I want them to stop the wholesale slaughter of kids. This barbarism is not how a “just” war is conducted, and especially not a “defensive” one.
Stop reposting obvious Hamas lies.
To repeat what I said to your statement higher up:
A 100 year old charity whose goal is to save children from war isa terrorist groupHamas? Are you ok?Removed by mod
what the fuck you want
It’s weird how they still class things as war crimes, despite everything being totally okay as you say.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
The killing of kids is terrible
Israel’s goal of Hamas’ destruction makes it unavoidable
Without a change in Gaza further attacks from Hamas are unavoidable
And unless there is a government in Israel that stops the settlement and incursions of Radical Israelis in the west bank there will be no peace
There is no true and just change here at this time that fixes everything
Israel’s goal of Hamas’ destruction makes it unavoidable
“We did nothing to prevent the reckless deaths of twenty times the number of innocents and we’re all out of ideas”
He says, unironically,
on an article aboutas he justifies 3000 dead children. Gross.He says, unironically as he justifies the beheading of children. Gross. /s
See how that sounds? Stop misappropriating people’s character
Yeah, wheres the evidence of that? I know exactly just how it sounds. It sounds like a poor excuse for the murder 0f 3000 children. You do you though. I don’t go around trying to soften mass child murder.
Softening the murder of children with the murder of other children would be an illogical excuse
The evidence of such you know cannot be posted here
I only leave this https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/hamas-babies-beheading-kfaz-aza-b2427627.html
Legit the most sane person I saw on this platform.
Congrats on not being brainwashed.
So attack Hamas, not just whoever you can find that looks like them.
Jesus tap dancing Christ…
Ministries of Health in Gaza is Hamas lead no? Would not be surprised to see the numbers in Gaza being inflated
“Hamas has now been in charge of Gaza for 16 years. It has squeezed the life out of honesty and probity. Any health official stepping out of line and not giving the death tolls that Hamas wants reported to journalists risks serious consequences. I’m not denying there are civilians being killed. At all, including many children. That’s verifiable. What is not verifiable are the numbers that emerge throughout the day from Gaza of new death tolls — 700 killed in the last 24 hours, 500 killed in the Ahli hospital car park blast, 5,000 killed since October 8. Hamas has a clear propaganda incentive to inflate civilian casualties as much as possible. There was a time when the figures from the ministry could be relied upon. The doctors and administrators knew what they were doing.”
This is an area of credibility that is still up in the air with reliable sources claiming that it is both reliable and unreliable numbers that are being published. However none of it though dismisses the fact that innocents are dying from Israel’s War with Hamas, innocents that contain children
You mean you don’t trust the word of religious fanatics? SHAME SHAME SHAME
The health ministry is completely separate from Hamas
Source? I was under the impression that Hamas was in charge of all Governance in the Gaza Strip
EDIT: Following the 2007 Hamas takeover of Gaza, a month-long doctors’ strike ensued due to political disputes. The new Gaza government, with Basem Naim as Health Minister, replaced Fatah-affiliated hospital directors and staff with Hamas loyalists. Jomaa Alsaqqa, a 20-year surgeon at al-Shifa Hospital, lost his job due to his Fatah support and faced arrests and assaults since the Hamas takeover. In response, Naim stated “the hospital managers weren’t fired for political reasons: they were fired because of managerial, financial, and moral corruption in the hospitals.” per wikipedia article here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Health_Ministry)
While there are political independent and non political members of the Gaza Health Ministry it is still under the direction of Hamas itself.
This is an area of credibility that is still up in the air with reliable sources claiming that it is both reliable and unreliable numbers that are being published. None of it though dismisses the fact that innocents are dying from Israel’s War with Hamas, innocents that contain children
From literally 8 comments down, don’t want you to have to break your scroll wheel.
“The numbers may not be perfectly accurate on a minute-to-minute basis,” said Michael Ryan, of the World Health Organization’s Health Emergencies Program. “But they largely reflect the level of death and injury.”
In previous wars, the ministry’s counts have held up to U.N. scrutiny, independent investigations and even Israel’s tallies.“Hamas has now been in charge of Gaza for 16 years. It has squeezed the life out of honesty and probity. Any health official stepping out of line and not giving the death tolls that Hamas wants reported to journalists risks serious consequences. I’m not denying there are civilians being killed. At all, including many children. That’s verifiable. What is not verifiable are the numbers that emerge throughout the day from Gaza of new death tolls — 700 killed in the last 24 hours, 500 killed in the Ahli hospital car park blast, 5,000 killed since October 8. Hamas has a clear propaganda incentive to inflate civilian casualties as much as possible. There was a time when the figures from the ministry could be relied upon. The doctors and administrators knew what they were doing.”
I don’t see how Palestinians really benefit on the long run from inflating the number of deaths. So many have died and no countries have enough courage or decency to impose sanctions on Israel for it yet. If Palestinians want more deaths, they have a catalog of victims of Israeli crimes, torture cases in prison, etc.
Yes, it’s entirely possible they inflated the numbers, yet we don’t extend the same skepticism to Israel (which is known to play balls deep into the PR game). And honestly, the majority of whom I’ve seen argue against these numbers eventually lead to excusing Israeli war crimes about 3 comments into the discussion.
Hamas has always had an incentive to look like a bigger victim, but in all those times those numbers held up and the UN’s tally matched that provided by doctors. There is no reason to doubt these numbers now because they were correct before even when Hamas had an incentive, in completely identical situations (aka previous wars on Gaza). The trust of these numbers has not been eroded by logic or healthy skepticism, but rather by Israeli propaganda and White House officials bending to it.
I don’t see how Palestinians really benefit on the long run from inflating the number of deaths. So many have died and no countries have enough courage or decency to impose sanctions on Israel for it yet. If Palestinians want more deaths, they have a catalog of victims of Israeli crimes, torture cases in prison, etc.
Currently there is a massive information campaign that is being waged by Isral and the US vs Iran and Gaza https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinformation_in_the_2023_Israel–Hamas_war
There are attempts to push international support to one side or the other that cause direct impact to this war
Every little gain possible is to shift support to one side or the other
Yeah, I get that. I guess the point of my paragraph was that Palestinian lives never mattered. I thought it was clear after reading my second and third paragraphs that I’m not denying a PR war is happening… But as usual, gotta be ultra clear on the internet.
You have to understand that there is a big difference between killing innocents like Hamas does - purposefully coming to peaceful Kibbutzim and killing as many people as possible and deaths of innocents Palestinians which happen because Hamas are fucking terrorists and hide between/under civil locations.
Two war crimes don’t make a right. I find it suspect how many members of the press and their families consistently happen to be close to Hamas or their tunnels. Seems more like a blanket excuse to me
Website is called savethechildren. I have been conditioned through hundreds of events that their goal is, in fact, to hurt children. I don’t know how, but I’m certain it shall become true.
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Stop posting obviously false info from a terrorist group.
100 year old charity whose goal is to save children from war is a terrorist group… Are you ok?
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You reveal yourself to be ignorant of anything in this thread when you attempt to disparage people in here as “tankies.”
Please explain to me what a tankie is.
Hey, those are anti-apartheid freedom lies
Its ridiculous people just repeat clear lies from Hamas.
And our mainstream news will just repeat it without adding in the source is Hamas. Absolute trash journalism.
Save the Children, in line with OCHA updates, is currently relying on data from the Israeli Ministry of Health for casualties in Israel and from the Gaza Ministry of Health for casualties inside Gaza. Due to the current situation, information and numbers provided by both ministries cannot be verified independently.
important note, since Gaza’s ministry is run by the Hamas and Israel could play those numbers down.
That is refuted already down the page, but here you go. From the AP:
“The numbers may not be perfectly accurate on a minute-to-minute basis,” said Michael Ryan, of the World Health Organization’s Health Emergencies Program. “But they largely reflect the level of death and injury.”
In previous wars, the ministry’s counts have held up to U.N. scrutiny, independent investigations and even Israel’s tallies.Not that I believe you care, as you attempt to lessen the deaths of scores of children, which certainly is gross!
what do I attempt 🤔
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