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Cake day: July 6th, 2023
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Yet Israeli settlers are free to harass Palestinians and force them from their homes without consequence
That’s simply not true
Meanwhile Hamas literally has in their original charter that the reason they exist was to form an Islamic state, resist PA secularism, and fight a two state solution, because their goal was genocide of Israel.
Hamas only exists because peaceful diplomacy with Israel was successful, and leading to a secular Palestinian state and a two state solution.
As this wasn’t a terrorist attack, a closer analogue is a recent war.
One estimate puts civilian casualties in the Battle of Mosul at around 40,000
strong disagree on that one lol
Do you condemn Israel for its very real and ongoing genocide
If this were real, sure
But there will be Gazans in 2025, 2030, etc. ideally in their own state.
Still running from the whole teardown eh
We are specifically talking about the formation of Hamas in this conversation. I was rebutting your points.
Funny you try to skim past that.
One of us certainly believes propaganda.
If they were committing genocide, sure.
Hamas was literally formed as a reaction to the continued illegal occupation of Palestinian territories
Hamas was literally formed because the Palestinian government was becoming too secular and was too interested in peace with Israel.
Here is an interview, with quotes, and details, with a literal expert on th subject who is also Pro-Palestinian.
How Hamas got elected:
KEAR: The key Fatah people - most of Fatah are living in the diaspora. They’re the ones living in the four-story houses, driving around in their gold Mercedes. They’re not experiencing the day-to-day privations of the occupation, whereas Hamas - they’re a product of the occupation. You can see them walking in the streets. You can see them at the market. People may not necessarily agree with their narrative, with the - as an Islamist movement. They get a lot of respect for the fact that they live amongst the community.
ARABLOUEI: As the first intifada went on, many Palestinians became more and more frustrated not only with the occupation but with the PLO/Fatah as it attempted to negotiate a two-state solution with Israel.
ELGINDY: The reality was that Fatah and some of the smaller parties were interested in joining a peace process that would result in a compromise situation of a West Bank and Gaza state.
KEAR: And certainly by this stage, 1987, 20 years of occupation - what have the PLO done? When I say PLO, what has Fatah done? Nothing, virtually. We’ve been fighting for 20 years, resisting for 20 years. Nothing has changed. In fact, it’s actually gotten worse, where we are further away from an independent state than we’ve ever been before.
Israel did not become aggressive to Hamas until after they began terrorist activities.
BACONI: “Hamas Contained: The Rise And Pacification Of Palestinian Resistance.” When Hamas was established out of that structure and it began to engage in resistance activities…
ARABLOUEI: Like attacks on military posts and abducting Israeli soldiers.
BACONI: …Immediately, Israel’s approach to dealing with Hamas changed, and it stopped being one of approval. It started being an antagonistic relationship because obviously now it’s a resistance party.
HACHAM: In retrospective, I think this was - I call it the original sin of the Israeli authorities - Israeli security authorities that did not understand that period of time what can be developed of this innocent organization movement, al-Mujama al-Islamiya.
This frustration and aggression is also detailed in the original Hamas charter
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
You don’t have to agree with Israel’s government, response, or how this war is being prosecuted, to understand that
1: Hamas is an islamic terror organization that usurped a government and denies democracy to millions
2: Hamas cannot and will not back down, because Jihad is their sole purpose for existing
3: A two state solution was one-track, and is always infinitely more possible with any other Palestinian leadership.
Support for Hamas is always wrong. Gazans who support Hamas today are wrong, but they do not deserve to be killed or to suffer as they have been.
I firmly believe everyone even emotionally aligning with Hamas has some very serious issues. I never condoned the killing of any civilian, and never will.
Disgust with Hamas’s atrocities does not imply that I support the deaths of civilians in any way.
Hamas has no interest in governing responsibly.
You may want to look up what Hamas did to the opposition party, but I doubt you’ll be swayed, because what you believe is pure propaganda.
I cannot believe you can excuse terrorism in your mind so easily. Support for Palestinians in no way implies you need to support Hamas.
I would imagine any group of people who are experiencing a genocide
Hamas took over the country in 2007, after Israel had left Gaza. They then promptly canceled elections forever, declared Jihad, and began torturing dissidents to death.
They have not only actively fought a 2-state solution and secularization, but have opposed Israel normalizing relations with neighbors, because their goal is the eradication of Israel.
Moreover, Hamas has stolen aid money, impeded and corrupted aid groups, and restricted access to medical supplies and food to solidify their own power.
There is no defense for Hamas, and referring to them as a “resistance group” is both inherently dishonest and empowering to the terror organization.
This discussion is not and has never been about Gazan’s - this discussion is about OP calling them a “resistance group with some radical elements” which they are not.
I definitely understood, yes. Hamas is not a “resistance org”, and they don’t have a “few extremists”. Every member of Hamas is an extremist who is willing to torture and murder Palestinians who challenge them.
That is not a resistance group. They are all extremists, by definition, because Hamas is a Jihadist Islamist group, even if you take Israel completely off the table.
In their own words:
“Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes,” Hamas said in its first statement in the late 1980s.
https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/doctrine-hamas
Support for the Palestinian people neither requires, nor implies, support for Hamas, and support for Hamas is, definitionally, not support for the Palestinian people.
Everyone who supports Hamas, like the poster above is doing by referring to them as a “resistance group” with “a few radicals.”
Lol it’s always so fun that they’ll speak in code but never acknowledge the actual abhorrence of the things they support.
I agree. I’m big on specificity of language.
You can move within your country and your experience will be entirely different. You can’t in China, because it’s an authoritarian hellstate.
I agree that Republicans are authoritarians, and that sucks. I also acknowledge that you likely view hierarchies as inherently authoritarian and that we’ll likely not see eye to eye on where to draw lines. Also fine - that’s what liberal ideologies want, is that disagreement.
But to compare China positively with the US in terms of authoritarianism is, frankly, a bit silly.
People break laws all the time. That doesnt mean the gov supports them.
You may enjoy learning about the actual nuance here
https://israelpolicyforum.org/west-bank-settlements-explained/