When in rome, do as the Romans do. You may not agree with it, but it’s how it works here and not doing it is taking advantage of a worker not the restaurant
I do agree with you, and I also find it extremely annoying that I am expected to give a tip.
However, when I go to the US I know their society works like that, I am visiting and I respect their customs, regardless of how idiotic they seem to me, I just treat the tip as part of the price and there’s that.
What I really find annoying of waiters in the US is that they know you’ll give them a tip and attempt to their best to be servicing with you all the time. Asking you several times if all is good, you need something else and so on.
I remember once I took a beer with my girlfriend in a bar and before I got to drinking half of that I was asked by 3 different waiters if everything was alright several times as well as being asked twice if I wanted another beer.
Fuck off guys, if I want something I’ll ask you. You’re not being kind by doing all this, just annoying.
Yes, because you know this, and you might just accept it as cost of doing business. But not everyone knows about this. And honestly, some might just forget as they’re busy talking about the games or the stores or whatever else they want to go see and visit.
I also understand that’s “how it works” in the US. I’ve visited plenty over the years.
But what I take issue with is when tourists are being blamed. Because they’re not the problem. They contribute to additional profit for the resturant. The problem is the management that can get away with not paying their staff enough.
But what I take issue with is when tourists are being blamed. Because they’re not the problem. They contribute to additional profit for the resturant. The problem is the management that can get away with not paying their staff enough.
Here’s the disconnect: the restaurant owners who make said “additional profit” are not the ones complaining, they’re not the ones in this thread. The ones complaining are the workers directly affected by the lack of tips, and they’re capable of hating both their boss/the system and the customers that don’t tip who are complicit in their exploitation by paying their boss. The worker sees NONE of that profit but ALL of the work they didn’t get paid for because the euros didn’t tip them and their boss doesn’t give half a shit.
The problem is both of you not paying the staff, if either of you did there’d be less to complain about.
Tipping is rude in Japan. If I go to Japan and tip, I’m rude. It is my responsibility to know this as a visitor to their country.
Not tipping is rude in America. If I go to America and don’t tip, I’m rude. It is my responsibility to know this as a visitor to their country.
Again. Having the fucked up system of people having to survive on handouts and donations from strangers is the problem. Not the tourists.
The only disconnect is that americans are bitching about tourists not tipping on lemmy, rather than bitching about servers having to rely on tips in the first place to their representatives.
The US vowed to offer free public transit for World Cup tourists in their bid to host it. Instead once push came to shove. They increased their prices instead of upholding what they promised.
Maybe more tourists would tip had their entire budget not been flipped on its head just weeks prior to the event.
Sure, but unless you can fix it yesterday, before they got here, this is the system they’re visiting.
The US vowed to offer free public transit for World Cup tourists in their bid to host it. Instead once push came to shove. They increased their prices instead of upholding what they promised.
Oh yeah I forgot about that, all the waiters in the country got together and conspired to do that to personally fuck you, I remember that meeting.
You think the people you’re not tipping had anything to do with that? You’re insane.
You think the people you’re not tipping had anything to do with that? You’re insane.
What the fuck are you talking about? You are aware that most people dont have unlimited funds right? Having to spend an extra $50-$100 on transport for each trip has to come out of the budget somewhere.
But you thought i suggested the waiters conspired to raise transport prices? Because that’s the obvious conclusion or what? No, I’m not insane. But you’re an idiot stuck at a second grade reading level.
You, tourist, not tipping ain’t gonna change shit, it just leaves a working class person hungry. At this particular World Cup it’s probably an at least somewhat well off customer leaving a working class person hungry, given how expensive tickets are.
You know what would end tipping culture? Unions. Act annoyed that it hasn’t happened if you want, but it’s not yours to change. For as much as Europeans like to lecture Americans about ineffective protest methods, they think doing something that benefits only them is a protest method. Don’t go to restaurants in America if you can’t accept this. Yeah I know, Lemmy people don’t visit America, blah blah blah royal you.
I don’t normally like generalizing people based on country or continent but I read it so damn much that I really stop giving a fuck when the people doing it reveal themselves to be massive hypocrites. It’s like listening to a “do as I say not as I do” parent. (btw what’s up with y’all condemning nativism in America and then falling hook line and sinker for it when it’s your countries? I see that a lot. Yeah I know, Statue of Liberty poem, but the racist narratives are bullshit everywhere.) If the way I lean is a sign of entitlement, I better see you willing to confront YOUR entitlement.
No one is thinking that tourists will change your lack of labour laws. You’re just feeling pissy because tourism for the Epstein Cup keeps highlighting everything fucked with the US. You, and this article are fantastic examples of what’s wrong.
You’re defaulting to blaming the tourists for not tipping, rather than the employers that dont pay their staff, or the legal framework that allows it to take place.
The resturants are all full with tourists. Clearly there’s more than enough turnover and profit to pay staff with…
As for the last thing you wrote. I have no idea wtf you’re talking about. Maybe you should check if your house/apartment has lead paint. That would explain a lot
It is 100% taking advantage. If you accept the labor of a person and you know that most of their compensation is at your discretion, and you don’t do it because you aren’t forced to, you are just as exploitive if not more so. I mean do you really need it to be baked into the price to force you to do the right thing?
100% of their compensation is at my discretion. I’m paying for the meal. There was an advertised and agreed upon price of said meal.
When i go into a grocery store to buy milk. I’m not tipping my cashier for handling my transaction. I expect that to be included in the price of the products i buy.
The right thing. Is for the employer to pay their employees.
Nope. Healthcare is 99.99% paid for by the state. If you spend $200 for medication in a year, that’s your cap. And the rest of your medication for the year will be $0.
Everyone have free dental until they turn 26.
Everyone is in a union.
Tuition to universities is $0.
All kids in elementary and secondary education recieve free school lunches, which in 99.99% of cases consists of an all you can eat buffet.
Not many of those in the US. But I do this where I live. I do not support any restaurant here that expects tips so they don’t need to pay a living wage.
You could at least try to enter the name of the restaurant into a search engine and see what comes up, and then compare that wage to a living wage chart for the area. I’m seeing the estimated average pay for a server at 5 Napkin Burger (mentioned in the article) is $24.04 per hour, and the living wage for a single adult with 0 children is $38.21 per hour, so, looks like workers at 5 Napkin Burger need tips to survive. God help them if they’re a single mother, I guess.
That took me ten minutes.
If you aren’t willing to do the bare minimum to ensure you aren’t hurting people, I doubt you actually give a shit about them.
This is hilarious. I have difficulty beliving this is what Americans do before every visit to a restaurant.
And what gets me is that it’s not even to ensure that the employer is providing a living wage to their employees! It’s to ensure that you, as the customer, are adequetly supplementing the wage of your server, so that they don’t end up homeless.
Tourists are not responsible for ensuring that everyone in the resturant are paid accordingly to survive. That’s supposed to be the US governments job.
And how many of these 10 minute lookups do you think tourists have in them before they need to just get something to eat?
They would unironically have to catch their flights home before they find this magical US resturant that actually pay their staff a decent wage.
You’re making a philosophical argument based on principles, the other person is making a practical argument based on ethics. Neither one of you are even responding to each other.
What do you mean atn ethic decision ? You mean short terme gain ? How is it ethic to encourage the crushing machine to continue it’s crushing ? What would happen if these people just decided to say no. We want real pay or you dress your table alone. The fragile employer would be desperate… The timing is just right for this kind of action. But hey let’s discourage them with doomerisme.
Do you think customers being assholes is a step towards unionization? That you’re making people choose between food and rent out of solidarity with them?
I understand your point of view, and even to a certain degree agree (too bad it’s about tipping because fuck that). But these are not normal tourists you are getting, that did any kind of research. These people are here to drink beer and shout at each other, and are already very upset that everything is so expensive.
No it’s not. The only one taking advantage of workers is the restaurant owner.
If tipping is optional, why the hell would anyone “choose” to pay more? Imagine if I sold you a phone and said you can buy this phone for $500 or you can optionally pay an extra $100 and get literally exactly the same product. That’s tipping.
If tipping is mandatory, then make it clear beforehand that there is a mandatory fee and how much it is.
Serving staff have to declare and pay income taxes on their tips. If they don’t, they’re guilty of tax evasion and could get huge problems down the road.
I have a friend who did a bunch of work for cash and the CRA came after him for unpaid taxes. I would never want to go through that.
But the prices are already too high because of the expected tipping? Are you counting on people to eat at the restaurant because they didn’t expect to pay more and you can secretly price gouge them at the exit?
If anything the total expected price for a meal will come down because servers will be paid the fair market rate for their labour and not the current guilt trip percentages… the rise in prices won’t exceed the savings from not tipping.
I’m not counting on anything. If you read my other comments in this thread, it’s clear that I’m not defending tipping. I hate tipping. But I have to pour cold water on this all too common claim that one restaurant owner by themself can end tipping at their restaurant and survive as a business. It’s been tried before and failed numerous times.
About the best they can do is make tipping mandatory by putting an automatic 35% gratuity on the bill. But this is something only high end restaurants have gotten away with. Restaurants for budget conscious people (i.e normal people rather than rich people) cannot survive with anything like this.
The same story would apply for simply raising prices. People will see the restaurant as too expensive for what it offers and stop going.
If anything the total expected price for a meal will come down because servers will be paid the fair market rate for their labour and not the current guilt trip percentages
This claim needs a lot of support. Are you aware that 42% of all restaurants in Canada are already losing money paying the low wages as it is? To support your claim, you’d have to show how paying fair market wages, eliminating tipping, and charging more for meals would translate into higher sales.
I’d also like to point out that not everyone tips the same percentage. Some tip a lot, some less, some not at all. Those who tip a lot are in effect subsidizing the meals of those who cannot or will not tip as much. For people who cannot afford to tip at all, a move to a non-tipping system would represent an absolute increase in the cost of their meal.
If a meal is priced $50 + a 15% tip is expected, you expect customers to pay $57.50 for the meal.
If you instead eliminate tipping and increase the prices by 15%, your customers will still pay the same $57.50 for the meal. You still have the extra money to pay your servers. How does that lead to fewer customers? They still see the same final price at the end of the day.
The rest of the world operates perfectly fine without tipping and in fact has better service.
Tips are optional. People tip anywhere from 0-100%, with most tips in the 15-35% range. A person who regularly tips 0-10% will see their prices go up if they’re forced to pay 15% more on every meal.
But my broader point doesn’t address the “what if society wakes up tomorrow and bans tipping for the entire country?” scenario. That’s a fantasy scenario.
The issue I’m raising is the question “what if one restaurant owner decides to eliminate tipping at their restaurant and just charge 15% more, passing all that money over to the employees?” The answer is that this has been tried before and the restaurants did not survive. People saw the higher prices and switched to a restaurant with lower menu prices, even if they tip 15% or more anyway.
You might say this is irrational, and it is, from an economic standpoint. But people in a tipping culture do prefer it that way. The fact that a tip is optional but customary makes them feel like they are in control, and of course they are, given that people decide how much they want to tip.
We’re talking about irrational behaviour by customers and you’re surprised that it happens? Why do you think entire industries routinely use hidden fees that dramatically raise the final price above the advertised price?
Because it works! You may not like it, I certainly don’t like it, but I can’t dispute it because it does in fact work.
We’re talking about irrational behaviour by customers
No, we are not. The article is about foreigners in the US not tipping, which is not irrational behaviour, at all.
Why do you think entire industries routinely use hidden fees that dramatically raise the final price above the advertised price?
Because some governments, especially the US government, would rather punish their citizens than the companies scamming them.
Regardless, anyone in the US who is economically conscious enough to choose to eat out or not depending on prices, would inevitably take tipping into consideration, and anyone who isn’t, wouldn’t. The alternative would be people who cannot afford eating out not tipping, equally screwing over service workers, so your point is moot.
Any difference in behaviour between North Americans (who do tip) and foreigners (who don’t) is by definition economically irrational behaviour, because economics predicts that a rational consumer would seek to pay as little as possible. The actual behaviour may be rational from a social perspective (social pressures, signalling, etc) but it is economically irrational to pay more than required.
Tipping in this way functions no differently from hidden fees in that consumers do not accurately take them into account when purchasing, even when the information is publicly available and widely known. That foreigners do not tip is a cultural (irrational) difference, not a calculated difference. In some sense it’s no different than other cultural differences that annoy locals, such as public spitting or littering.
As for broader trends in terms of how often people eat out, those tend to be economically rational. People don’t tend to go deeply into debt to continue eating out when they can’t afford it, though there is likely a small percentage of exceptions. In general though, the existence of tipping means people eat out less often than they otherwise would.
Any difference in behaviour between North Americans (who do tip) and foreigners (who don’t) is by definition economically irrational behaviour
The difference between foreigners and Americans isn’t relevant, since the benchmark is maximizing value.
because economics predicts that a rational consumer would seek to pay as little as possible
Good thing I said that the article was about foreigners not tipping while in the US, which by your own definition is not irrational behavior, quite the opposite.
In some sense it’s no different than other cultural differences that annoy locals, such as public spitting or littering.
Nice examples. I wouldn’t put “refusing to participate in a custom exclusive to the US that has historically been weaponized to keep wages as low as possible”, at the same level as spitting or littering, but that’s just me I guess.
Let’s say that I refuse to go to a restaurant staffed exclusively by 14 year olds, because I don’t like child labor, would that annoy you too?
In general though, the existence of tipping means people eat out less often than they otherwise would.
Right. That’s what I said in my previous message: people take tipping into account before going out, especially when they are economically constrained.
It honestly feels like either you didn’t really read my comment, or a LLM wrote your response.
Landlords are definitely an issue that needs to be handled as well but that doesn’t absolve the employer of paying their people a living wage. Tipping culture in general needs to die off.
If that’s not possible but they believe in their business, they could consider a different business model, maybe become an employee co-op so the employees have a stake and could see the fruits of their own labor one day.
Are you aware of any restaurants that pay an actual living wage? For Toronto (and the GTA), that’s $27.20 per hour, or nearly $10 above minimum wage. For restaurants that already operate on razor thin margins, that’s impossible.
I don’t go around inquiring what everyone pays but I try to frequent local, reputable business so I’m going to say, “yes, as much I can get in the capitalist dystopia we operate in.” There are several locally that actually try really hard to compensate their staff, including a couple co-ops, they’re pretty vocal about their tipping policies and the benefits they give their workers, they aren’t hard to find if you look around. They are slightly more expensive but the quality is usually there.
Kind of unrelated but I’ve noticed here locally (I can’t really comment on any other regions as I’m not that familiar with them) there seem to be a handful of successful restaurateurs that own several restaurants that underwrite or try out new concepts. If it’s successful it ends up staying around, if it’s not successful they usually know within the first year. I’m not sure if that’s how it is everywhere or if we just have a cabal of young chefs in my city but it’s something I’ve noticed. There are several brick and mortar stores that started out as food trucks and grew into more so it’s not like you have to open a big storefront initially either. Start your concept and bring in investors if you need to but if you can’t pay employees it’s not a viable business model.
FWIW servers can do really well in nicer places, If you want to see what a restaurant really pays look at how the kitchen staff is compensated.
Everyone in the west knows about tipping. No one is being misled. There have been many attempts to run restaurants with higher prices but no tipping. They always go out of business.
That’s a bold assumption. I’m in the west too. Tipping is not a thing here (at least not in that way). Having a price on the menu and asking for more is also frowned upon here, not to mention illegal.
When one mentions “the west” it means the western world, not “west of the Atlantic”. If you’re going to make your own definitions for words you should at least be clear about it.
If you go someplace and get waited on, and you KNOW that not tipping them means you basically took their labor for free, you are also an asshole. If you think not owning the business abdicates you from that, then you are just as bad as the business owner who thinks the custom abdicates them from paying a living wage. You’re not a crusader for justice, you’re a cheap jerk.
In New York, which the article is about, the hourly wage for tipped employees is only $2.70 less than usual. So if a server waits on 5 tables an hour, each table only needs to tip $0.54 per hour to make up for the “lost” wage. Anything extra is just voluntarily financing the server’s fancy new handbag or iPhone. And in New York, like most places now, the employer is required to make up the difference in their pay if they didn’t get enough tips, so even if you don’t tip you’re not taking anything for free… the employer has to cover it.
Wait staff are assholes thinking they can guilt trip people to hand over extra money for free when they’re simply doing their job. Doubly so when they aren’t even sharing the tips with the kitchen staff who are doing the real work.
Most people from a non tipping culture don’t know how to tip. They don’t know how much, is it inappropriate, do the stuff get it or does management steal it. Really is a big deal.
Lol non tipping culture… Bro … In Europe we tip often when the server is nice and provide a good service. It is unimaginable that server are some sort of slaves which have to beg customer because they employer don’t pay them their fair share…
Definitely not the same thing. I was very confused when in the US as to what I should tip. I knew tipping was expected but in several occasions I asked the waiter what an appropriate tip would be.
In most cases adding a couple dollars to the price is not enough and could be seen as an insult.
In Europe I don’t often give a 20€ tip after paying 100€ in a restaurant.
So in America that is called “theft.” You can’t (well you can but it is illegal and you can be charged with a crime) just steal the food and leave.
And in some cases (not all,) that server is forced to pay for the meal you skipped out on. Not a great thing to do to someone tbh, even if you’re mad they didn’t bring your refill quick enough.
The waiter is charged if a customer does not pay? That is quite absurd. That’s a business loss, the owner should lose money and and not employees.
I don’t know about America, when I did that I’ve always been quite loud and nobody ever thought about calling the police.
even if you’re mad they didn’t bring your refill quick enough.
Not sure what a refill is. I did not say that if I don’t like the waiter I won’t pay, in that case it just would be absurd for me to give them a tip.
I said if I am served bad food I won’t pay, which has nothing to do with wether the waiter was nice to me.
Never seen this as theft, it may legally be. I’m sure any policeman would agree and do nothing about it anyway.
Ah in America you have to speak with the manager and basically attempt to convince them to comp your food. If the food is sufficiently subpar you can often get them to do so, though if the restaurant is just bad you’re likely to not succeed.
Not every place, many do eat the cost, but many do charge the waiter as if it’s their responsibility to stop you, yes.
It’s definitely theft. If I go into a store, open a coke, take a sip, go “eww” and walk out, the store can no longer sell that used coke and has to trash it. Same at a restaurant.
So have I but I find it hard to know what is appropriate and what’s ridiculous and there is always this internal tension about am I getting ripped off or am I ripping someone off. One of distortions seems to be waiting staff received more than the people doing the cooking. It’s a really bad system.
people like you, believing this kind of bullshit propaganda pushed by business owners lobby, are the reason why things are getting so bad in the US… next thing you’ll tell me unions are bad and affordable healthcare is some communist bullshit.
if the business is not paying their employees livable wage they should not work there and the business should go bankrupt. yes, there are many people who wouldn’t find any other job right now. and they can choose to suffer temporary unemployment now or accept to live indentured life forever.
history clearly shows that workers not accepting unbearable conditions ultimately leads to improvement for everyone. guilt-tripping customers into giving alm to employees instead of paying them actual wages is just postponing the inevitable.
Not willing to sacrifice any convenience yourself, blame the worker for their poor conditions. You’d cross the picket line if they did strike, quit lying to yourself.
Fair, I should clarify, don’t ask another European customer. Ask someone who has been here for more than a week, we know by the type of restaurant.
If you’re sitting in a chair being served by a person, that’s a safe bet. The ones in this category that do pay fairly will usually tell you, they’re pretty rare so they kind of have to.
If you order from a counter or screen and take it out or sit down? Optional. They get paid, some better than others, but they get paid. These new screens will still ask for a tip but ignore that, it’s new and doesn’t need to be any more normalized than it already is. Exception: Coffee/bars. For some reason a lot of them aren’t paid well but even then you can just put a dollar in the jar for coffee or tip 20% at the bar at the end of the night. Some of these places still don’t even have the screens that ask yet, thankfully.
I don’t even disagree, tipping sucks and we should raise the price 30% and give that directly to the employee because fuck non-tippers.
But as it stands the only people these eurotrash are hurting are the workers they claim to support, then they say they’re hurting you for your own good.
The side of the workers is wanting them to get fair wages while also wanting them to be able to feed themselves and not go homeless in the interim. The two aren’t mutually exclusive
Them getting fair wages is the only reliable way for them to be able to feed themselves and not go homeless.
When Gratuities, rather than being an exceptional reward for exceptional service are instead needed to allow people to be able to feed themselves and not go homeless because they’re not paid fair wages and the only thing making others give them is because it’s socially frowned upon if they do not, then they’re just another form or charity and, as we see here, charity is not reliable and can be withhold for any reason or even no reason at all.
The US is a seriously broken society when workers have to actually rely on strangers, for no stronger reason than social pressure, giving them extra money able to feed themselves and not go homeless.
While I agree with you, it doesn’t change the fact that giving some one a tip today saves them tomorrow. I don’t think the waitress that brought me my hash browns is particularly interested in labor theory, she just needs money.
When in rome, do as the Romans do. You may not agree with it, but it’s how it works here and not doing it is taking advantage of a worker not the restaurant
Oh do fuck off with that. The customer isn’t taking advantage of the worker or the resturant. The employer is taking advantage of the workers.
If it’s not optional. Include it in the price up front so we all know what we’re paying.
I do agree with you, and I also find it extremely annoying that I am expected to give a tip. However, when I go to the US I know their society works like that, I am visiting and I respect their customs, regardless of how idiotic they seem to me, I just treat the tip as part of the price and there’s that.
What I really find annoying of waiters in the US is that they know you’ll give them a tip and attempt to their best to be servicing with you all the time. Asking you several times if all is good, you need something else and so on. I remember once I took a beer with my girlfriend in a bar and before I got to drinking half of that I was asked by 3 different waiters if everything was alright several times as well as being asked twice if I wanted another beer.
Fuck off guys, if I want something I’ll ask you. You’re not being kind by doing all this, just annoying.
Yes, because you know this, and you might just accept it as cost of doing business. But not everyone knows about this. And honestly, some might just forget as they’re busy talking about the games or the stores or whatever else they want to go see and visit.
I also understand that’s “how it works” in the US. I’ve visited plenty over the years.
But what I take issue with is when tourists are being blamed. Because they’re not the problem. They contribute to additional profit for the resturant. The problem is the management that can get away with not paying their staff enough.
Here’s the disconnect: the restaurant owners who make said “additional profit” are not the ones complaining, they’re not the ones in this thread. The ones complaining are the workers directly affected by the lack of tips, and they’re capable of hating both their boss/the system and the customers that don’t tip who are complicit in their exploitation by paying their boss. The worker sees NONE of that profit but ALL of the work they didn’t get paid for because the euros didn’t tip them and their boss doesn’t give half a shit.
The problem is both of you not paying the staff, if either of you did there’d be less to complain about.
Tipping is rude in Japan. If I go to Japan and tip, I’m rude. It is my responsibility to know this as a visitor to their country.
Not tipping is rude in America. If I go to America and don’t tip, I’m rude. It is my responsibility to know this as a visitor to their country.
Simple as.
Again. Having the fucked up system of people having to survive on handouts and donations from strangers is the problem. Not the tourists.
The only disconnect is that americans are bitching about tourists not tipping on lemmy, rather than bitching about servers having to rely on tips in the first place to their representatives.
The US vowed to offer free public transit for World Cup tourists in their bid to host it. Instead once push came to shove. They increased their prices instead of upholding what they promised.
Maybe more tourists would tip had their entire budget not been flipped on its head just weeks prior to the event.
Simple as.
Sure, but unless you can fix it yesterday, before they got here, this is the system they’re visiting.
Oh yeah I forgot about that, all the waiters in the country got together and conspired to do that to personally fuck you, I remember that meeting.
You think the people you’re not tipping had anything to do with that? You’re insane.
What the fuck are you talking about? You are aware that most people dont have unlimited funds right? Having to spend an extra $50-$100 on transport for each trip has to come out of the budget somewhere.
But you thought i suggested the waiters conspired to raise transport prices? Because that’s the obvious conclusion or what? No, I’m not insane. But you’re an idiot stuck at a second grade reading level.
You, tourist, not tipping ain’t gonna change shit, it just leaves a working class person hungry. At this particular World Cup it’s probably an at least somewhat well off customer leaving a working class person hungry, given how expensive tickets are.
You know what would end tipping culture? Unions. Act annoyed that it hasn’t happened if you want, but it’s not yours to change. For as much as Europeans like to lecture Americans about ineffective protest methods, they think doing something that benefits only them is a protest method. Don’t go to restaurants in America if you can’t accept this. Yeah I know, Lemmy people don’t visit America, blah blah blah royal you.
I don’t normally like generalizing people based on country or continent but I read it so damn much that I really stop giving a fuck when the people doing it reveal themselves to be massive hypocrites. It’s like listening to a “do as I say not as I do” parent. (btw what’s up with y’all condemning nativism in America and then falling hook line and sinker for it when it’s your countries? I see that a lot. Yeah I know, Statue of Liberty poem, but the racist narratives are bullshit everywhere.) If the way I lean is a sign of entitlement, I better see you willing to confront YOUR entitlement.
No one is thinking that tourists will change your lack of labour laws. You’re just feeling pissy because tourism for the Epstein Cup keeps highlighting everything fucked with the US. You, and this article are fantastic examples of what’s wrong.
You’re defaulting to blaming the tourists for not tipping, rather than the employers that dont pay their staff, or the legal framework that allows it to take place.
The resturants are all full with tourists. Clearly there’s more than enough turnover and profit to pay staff with…
As for the last thing you wrote. I have no idea wtf you’re talking about. Maybe you should check if your house/apartment has lead paint. That would explain a lot
Lol you’re an asshole
It is 100% taking advantage. If you accept the labor of a person and you know that most of their compensation is at your discretion, and you don’t do it because you aren’t forced to, you are just as exploitive if not more so. I mean do you really need it to be baked into the price to force you to do the right thing?
100% of their compensation is at my discretion. I’m paying for the meal. There was an advertised and agreed upon price of said meal.
When i go into a grocery store to buy milk. I’m not tipping my cashier for handling my transaction. I expect that to be included in the price of the products i buy.
The right thing. Is for the employer to pay their employees.
You’re just cheap dude.
No, I just don’t live in a shithole where service workers have to beg customers for extra donations juat to pay their bills.
You probably live in a shithole that charges for water and using the bathroom 🤣
Yanks like you are one of the many reasons why the civilised world sneers at 'Murica
Nope. Healthcare is 99.99% paid for by the state. If you spend $200 for medication in a year, that’s your cap. And the rest of your medication for the year will be $0.
Everyone have free dental until they turn 26.
Everyone is in a union.
Tuition to universities is $0.
All kids in elementary and secondary education recieve free school lunches, which in 99.99% of cases consists of an all you can eat buffet.
I could go on but I’m sure you get the point.
Cope harder, American.
Yes you do.
So the restaurant owner is taking advantage of the worker but suddenly it’s my fault?
Well yeah. If you choose not to compensate your server then you are taking advantage of the situation as well.
You could choose not to eat at restaurants that take advantage of their workers. That’s always an option.
Not many of those in the US. But I do this where I live. I do not support any restaurant here that expects tips so they don’t need to pay a living wage.
If I discover a restaurent doing this, for sure I report this to the syndicats and medias. And shame them by name every time I can.
So, every time I’m traveling abroad, and about to go into a resturant, i should pull aside someone and ask if they’re being taken advantage of?
Oh no, you have to do the bare minimum to ensure you aren’t participating in exploitation. You poor thing.
So what’s your process? Please share. How many of the staff members do i need to ask if they are being exploited by their employer?
Do you ask the kitchen staff as well to get a more broad sample size?
What’s my process? I tip, sizzlechest.
You could at least try to enter the name of the restaurant into a search engine and see what comes up, and then compare that wage to a living wage chart for the area. I’m seeing the estimated average pay for a server at 5 Napkin Burger (mentioned in the article) is $24.04 per hour, and the living wage for a single adult with 0 children is $38.21 per hour, so, looks like workers at 5 Napkin Burger need tips to survive. God help them if they’re a single mother, I guess.
That took me ten minutes.
If you aren’t willing to do the bare minimum to ensure you aren’t hurting people, I doubt you actually give a shit about them.
This is hilarious. I have difficulty beliving this is what Americans do before every visit to a restaurant.
And what gets me is that it’s not even to ensure that the employer is providing a living wage to their employees! It’s to ensure that you, as the customer, are adequetly supplementing the wage of your server, so that they don’t end up homeless.
Is this what stockholm syndrome feels like?
Tourists are not responsible for ensuring that everyone in the resturant are paid accordingly to survive. That’s supposed to be the US governments job.
And how many of these 10 minute lookups do you think tourists have in them before they need to just get something to eat?
They would unironically have to catch their flights home before they find this magical US resturant that actually pay their staff a decent wage.
Sounds like something the government should be doing, not every tourist that ever visits.
It takes about 10 minutes to look up the local customs of a place you are going to.
Nah, fuck tipping. Pay a livable wage.
Not tipping doesn’t help us get there, it just means some server worked and didn’t get paid.
If they don’t get paid why work for these greedy bastard ?
They usually do get paid. Not paying them until they can’t make rent and quit doesn’t result in the owner paying a living wage.
Yeah, as long ng as the owner can find people to exploit. Again the solution is solidarity against the exploiters… Whichever form is chosen.
You’re making a philosophical argument based on principles, the other person is making a practical argument based on ethics. Neither one of you are even responding to each other.
What do you mean atn ethic decision ? You mean short terme gain ? How is it ethic to encourage the crushing machine to continue it’s crushing ? What would happen if these people just decided to say no. We want real pay or you dress your table alone. The fragile employer would be desperate… The timing is just right for this kind of action. But hey let’s discourage them with doomerisme.
Depriving workers of wages isn’t solidarity, you’re just being an asshole individually.
It has to start somewhere.
I know you’re basically allergic to them, but have you heard about unions?
Don’t eat at restaurants that exploit their workers?
Do you think customers being assholes is a step towards unionization? That you’re making people choose between food and rent out of solidarity with them?
I understand your point of view, and even to a certain degree agree (too bad it’s about tipping because fuck that). But these are not normal tourists you are getting, that did any kind of research. These people are here to drink beer and shout at each other, and are already very upset that everything is so expensive.
No it’s not. The only one taking advantage of workers is the restaurant owner.
If tipping is optional, why the hell would anyone “choose” to pay more? Imagine if I sold you a phone and said you can buy this phone for $500 or you can optionally pay an extra $100 and get literally exactly the same product. That’s tipping.
If tipping is mandatory, then make it clear beforehand that there is a mandatory fee and how much it is.
Or just gasp include it in the price like civilised countries…
If you raise prices then fewer people will eat at your restaurant because the prices are too high.
It is literally the exact same price.
They don’t do it because then they have to pay taxes on those tips
Serving staff have to declare and pay income taxes on their tips. If they don’t, they’re guilty of tax evasion and could get huge problems down the road.
I have a friend who did a bunch of work for cash and the CRA came after him for unpaid taxes. I would never want to go through that.
But the prices are already too high because of the expected tipping? Are you counting on people to eat at the restaurant because they didn’t expect to pay more and you can secretly price gouge them at the exit?
If anything the total expected price for a meal will come down because servers will be paid the fair market rate for their labour and not the current guilt trip percentages… the rise in prices won’t exceed the savings from not tipping.
I’m not counting on anything. If you read my other comments in this thread, it’s clear that I’m not defending tipping. I hate tipping. But I have to pour cold water on this all too common claim that one restaurant owner by themself can end tipping at their restaurant and survive as a business. It’s been tried before and failed numerous times.
About the best they can do is make tipping mandatory by putting an automatic 35% gratuity on the bill. But this is something only high end restaurants have gotten away with. Restaurants for budget conscious people (i.e normal people rather than rich people) cannot survive with anything like this.
The same story would apply for simply raising prices. People will see the restaurant as too expensive for what it offers and stop going.
This claim needs a lot of support. Are you aware that 42% of all restaurants in Canada are already losing money paying the low wages as it is? To support your claim, you’d have to show how paying fair market wages, eliminating tipping, and charging more for meals would translate into higher sales.
I’d also like to point out that not everyone tips the same percentage. Some tip a lot, some less, some not at all. Those who tip a lot are in effect subsidizing the meals of those who cannot or will not tip as much. For people who cannot afford to tip at all, a move to a non-tipping system would represent an absolute increase in the cost of their meal.
I still don’t understand your point at all.
If a meal is priced $50 + a 15% tip is expected, you expect customers to pay $57.50 for the meal.
If you instead eliminate tipping and increase the prices by 15%, your customers will still pay the same $57.50 for the meal. You still have the extra money to pay your servers. How does that lead to fewer customers? They still see the same final price at the end of the day.
The rest of the world operates perfectly fine without tipping and in fact has better service.
Tips are optional. People tip anywhere from 0-100%, with most tips in the 15-35% range. A person who regularly tips 0-10% will see their prices go up if they’re forced to pay 15% more on every meal.
But my broader point doesn’t address the “what if society wakes up tomorrow and bans tipping for the entire country?” scenario. That’s a fantasy scenario.
The issue I’m raising is the question “what if one restaurant owner decides to eliminate tipping at their restaurant and just charge 15% more, passing all that money over to the employees?” The answer is that this has been tried before and the restaurants did not survive. People saw the higher prices and switched to a restaurant with lower menu prices, even if they tip 15% or more anyway.
You might say this is irrational, and it is, from an economic standpoint. But people in a tipping culture do prefer it that way. The fact that a tip is optional but customary makes them feel like they are in control, and of course they are, given that people decide how much they want to tip.
This is the dumbest possible take on this matter.
Like, customers are stupid enough to both ignore that they need to add 20% on top of the bill, and still tip? What?!
We’re talking about irrational behaviour by customers and you’re surprised that it happens? Why do you think entire industries routinely use hidden fees that dramatically raise the final price above the advertised price?
Because it works! You may not like it, I certainly don’t like it, but I can’t dispute it because it does in fact work.
No, we are not. The article is about foreigners in the US not tipping, which is not irrational behaviour, at all.
Because some governments, especially the US government, would rather punish their citizens than the companies scamming them.
Regardless, anyone in the US who is economically conscious enough to choose to eat out or not depending on prices, would inevitably take tipping into consideration, and anyone who isn’t, wouldn’t. The alternative would be people who cannot afford eating out not tipping, equally screwing over service workers, so your point is moot.
Any difference in behaviour between North Americans (who do tip) and foreigners (who don’t) is by definition economically irrational behaviour, because economics predicts that a rational consumer would seek to pay as little as possible. The actual behaviour may be rational from a social perspective (social pressures, signalling, etc) but it is economically irrational to pay more than required.
Tipping in this way functions no differently from hidden fees in that consumers do not accurately take them into account when purchasing, even when the information is publicly available and widely known. That foreigners do not tip is a cultural (irrational) difference, not a calculated difference. In some sense it’s no different than other cultural differences that annoy locals, such as public spitting or littering.
As for broader trends in terms of how often people eat out, those tend to be economically rational. People don’t tend to go deeply into debt to continue eating out when they can’t afford it, though there is likely a small percentage of exceptions. In general though, the existence of tipping means people eat out less often than they otherwise would.
The difference between foreigners and Americans isn’t relevant, since the benchmark is maximizing value.
Good thing I said that the article was about foreigners not tipping while in the US, which by your own definition is not irrational behavior, quite the opposite.
Nice examples. I wouldn’t put “refusing to participate in a custom exclusive to the US that has historically been weaponized to keep wages as low as possible”, at the same level as spitting or littering, but that’s just me I guess.
Let’s say that I refuse to go to a restaurant staffed exclusively by 14 year olds, because I don’t like child labor, would that annoy you too?
Right. That’s what I said in my previous message: people take tipping into account before going out, especially when they are economically constrained.
It honestly feels like either you didn’t really read my comment, or a LLM wrote your response.
Then your restaurant is too expensive to operate, this is very basic economics.
Restaurants are basically always operating on a razor thin margin.
I see them open and close every year in my city. Restaurants coming and going like a revolving door. The commercial landlords stay the same though.
Restaurants are notoriously difficult to run profitably (non-paywalled: https://archive.is/cQ2pB). I’m a patron of a lot of local restaurants and they definitely open and close a lot more than pretty much any other business I can think of (except maybe vape shops, remember those?).
Landlords are definitely an issue that needs to be handled as well but that doesn’t absolve the employer of paying their people a living wage. Tipping culture in general needs to die off.
If that’s not possible but they believe in their business, they could consider a different business model, maybe become an employee co-op so the employees have a stake and could see the fruits of their own labor one day.
Are you aware of any restaurants that pay an actual living wage? For Toronto (and the GTA), that’s $27.20 per hour, or nearly $10 above minimum wage. For restaurants that already operate on razor thin margins, that’s impossible.
I don’t go around inquiring what everyone pays but I try to frequent local, reputable business so I’m going to say, “yes, as much I can get in the capitalist dystopia we operate in.” There are several locally that actually try really hard to compensate their staff, including a couple co-ops, they’re pretty vocal about their tipping policies and the benefits they give their workers, they aren’t hard to find if you look around. They are slightly more expensive but the quality is usually there.
Kind of unrelated but I’ve noticed here locally (I can’t really comment on any other regions as I’m not that familiar with them) there seem to be a handful of successful restaurateurs that own several restaurants that underwrite or try out new concepts. If it’s successful it ends up staying around, if it’s not successful they usually know within the first year. I’m not sure if that’s how it is everywhere or if we just have a cabal of young chefs in my city but it’s something I’ve noticed. There are several brick and mortar stores that started out as food trucks and grew into more so it’s not like you have to open a big storefront initially either. Start your concept and bring in investors if you need to but if you can’t pay employees it’s not a viable business model.
FWIW servers can do really well in nicer places, If you want to see what a restaurant really pays look at how the kitchen staff is compensated.
So, you are actually defending intentionally misleading your customers?
Everyone in the west knows about tipping. No one is being misled. There have been many attempts to run restaurants with higher prices but no tipping. They always go out of business.
That’s a bold assumption. I’m in the west too. Tipping is not a thing here (at least not in that way). Having a price on the menu and asking for more is also frowned upon here, not to mention illegal.
I’m talking about west of the Atlantic, not Europe.
And I’m not defending the practice of tipping. I hate tipping. But what I hate even more are smug people who think it’s so easy to get rid of tipping.
When one mentions “the west” it means the western world, not “west of the Atlantic”. If you’re going to make your own definitions for words you should at least be clear about it.
If you go someplace and get waited on, and you KNOW that not tipping them means you basically took their labor for free, you are also an asshole. If you think not owning the business abdicates you from that, then you are just as bad as the business owner who thinks the custom abdicates them from paying a living wage. You’re not a crusader for justice, you’re a cheap jerk.
Their labour should be paid for by their employer, not the customers.
The only assholes here are the employers and the people who defend them.
In New York, which the article is about, the hourly wage for tipped employees is only $2.70 less than usual. So if a server waits on 5 tables an hour, each table only needs to tip $0.54 per hour to make up for the “lost” wage. Anything extra is just voluntarily financing the server’s fancy new handbag or iPhone. And in New York, like most places now, the employer is required to make up the difference in their pay if they didn’t get enough tips, so even if you don’t tip you’re not taking anything for free… the employer has to cover it.
Wait staff are assholes thinking they can guilt trip people to hand over extra money for free when they’re simply doing their job. Doubly so when they aren’t even sharing the tips with the kitchen staff who are doing the real work.
This is the way, both for tipping and other local customs.
Most people from a non tipping culture don’t know how to tip. They don’t know how much, is it inappropriate, do the stuff get it or does management steal it. Really is a big deal.
Lol non tipping culture… Bro … In Europe we tip often when the server is nice and provide a good service. It is unimaginable that server are some sort of slaves which have to beg customer because they employer don’t pay them their fair share…
Definitely not the same thing. I was very confused when in the US as to what I should tip. I knew tipping was expected but in several occasions I asked the waiter what an appropriate tip would be.
In most cases adding a couple dollars to the price is not enough and could be seen as an insult.
In Europe I don’t often give a 20€ tip after paying 100€ in a restaurant.
Generally 18% to 20% of the pre-tax bill is appropriate. 20 for great service, 18 for ok, less if the server was not good.
Don’t know about you, when service is not good I just don’t pay - let alone tip the waiter.
If I eat terribly in a restaurant I’ll just walk out.
So in America that is called “theft.” You can’t (well you can but it is illegal and you can be charged with a crime) just steal the food and leave.
And in some cases (not all,) that server is forced to pay for the meal you skipped out on. Not a great thing to do to someone tbh, even if you’re mad they didn’t bring your refill quick enough.
The waiter is charged if a customer does not pay? That is quite absurd. That’s a business loss, the owner should lose money and and not employees.
I don’t know about America, when I did that I’ve always been quite loud and nobody ever thought about calling the police.
Not sure what a refill is. I did not say that if I don’t like the waiter I won’t pay, in that case it just would be absurd for me to give them a tip. I said if I am served bad food I won’t pay, which has nothing to do with wether the waiter was nice to me.
Never seen this as theft, it may legally be. I’m sure any policeman would agree and do nothing about it anyway.
Ah in America you have to speak with the manager and basically attempt to convince them to comp your food. If the food is sufficiently subpar you can often get them to do so, though if the restaurant is just bad you’re likely to not succeed.
Not every place, many do eat the cost, but many do charge the waiter as if it’s their responsibility to stop you, yes.
It’s definitely theft. If I go into a store, open a coke, take a sip, go “eww” and walk out, the store can no longer sell that used coke and has to trash it. Same at a restaurant.
Tipping culture is not the same all over Europe.
It’s not hard to do the smallest amount of research about a place you are travelling to. I travel all over and always look up the local customs.
So have I but I find it hard to know what is appropriate and what’s ridiculous and there is always this internal tension about am I getting ripped off or am I ripping someone off. One of distortions seems to be waiting staff received more than the people doing the cooking. It’s a really bad system.
people like you, believing this kind of bullshit propaganda pushed by business owners lobby, are the reason why things are getting so bad in the US… next thing you’ll tell me unions are bad and affordable healthcare is some communist bullshit.
if the business is not paying their employees livable wage they should not work there and the business should go bankrupt. yes, there are many people who wouldn’t find any other job right now. and they can choose to suffer temporary unemployment now or accept to live indentured life forever.
history clearly shows that workers not accepting unbearable conditions ultimately leads to improvement for everyone. guilt-tripping customers into giving alm to employees instead of paying them actual wages is just postponing the inevitable.
If the business is not paying their employees a livable wage, customers shouldn’t eat there.
here we go again. always shift the blame…
it’s not us producing excissive amounts of plastics and offering no alternatives. you must separate your trash to save the planet!
it’s not us destroying the market and not paying our employees. if people really wanted the change they should boycot us!
Not willing to sacrifice any convenience yourself, blame the worker for their poor conditions. You’d cross the picket line if they did strike, quit lying to yourself.
How would a customer know that the employees aren’t being paid a living wage? The tip happens after the meal.
Fair, I should clarify, don’t ask another European customer. Ask someone who has been here for more than a week, we know by the type of restaurant.
If you’re sitting in a chair being served by a person, that’s a safe bet. The ones in this category that do pay fairly will usually tell you, they’re pretty rare so they kind of have to.
If you order from a counter or screen and take it out or sit down? Optional. They get paid, some better than others, but they get paid. These new screens will still ask for a tip but ignore that, it’s new and doesn’t need to be any more normalized than it already is. Exception: Coffee/bars. For some reason a lot of them aren’t paid well but even then you can just put a dollar in the jar for coffee or tip 20% at the bar at the end of the night. Some of these places still don’t even have the screens that ask yet, thankfully.
That’s about the long and short of it.
you mean “when in a dystopian exploitative society, do as the dystopian exploitative societies do”? :)
I think it means “don’t go and if you go, shop at a supermarket”. Problems solved.
I think you’re attempting to be facetious, but like
YES.
Im not. That is how I always solve it.
These people are shit.
Fucking Eurotrash the lot of them.
I don’t even disagree, tipping sucks and we should raise the price 30% and give that directly to the employee because fuck non-tippers.
But as it stands the only people these eurotrash are hurting are the workers they claim to support, then they say they’re hurting you for your own good.
Go the fuck home.
They are from Rome though…
Rome has no tipping culture
So, when in Nazi Germany… do as the Nazis do?
If you fully knew that Nazi Germany was Nazi Germany and you just decided to go anyway cause you love sports so much?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936_Summer_Olympics
There really isn’t a Side Of Good to be on in the specific case of World Cup Tourists vs US Restaurants.
Sure there is. It’s the side of the workers
True.
The side of the workers is wanting them to get fair wages for fair work.
You know, the kind of idea even the US used to have.
The side of the workers is wanting them to get fair wages while also wanting them to be able to feed themselves and not go homeless in the interim. The two aren’t mutually exclusive
Them getting fair wages is the only reliable way for them to be able to feed themselves and not go homeless.
When Gratuities, rather than being an exceptional reward for exceptional service are instead needed to allow people to be able to feed themselves and not go homeless because they’re not paid fair wages and the only thing making others give them is because it’s socially frowned upon if they do not, then they’re just another form or charity and, as we see here, charity is not reliable and can be withhold for any reason or even no reason at all.
The US is a seriously broken society when workers have to actually rely on strangers, for no stronger reason than social pressure, giving them extra money able to feed themselves and not go homeless.
While I agree with you, it doesn’t change the fact that giving some one a tip today saves them tomorrow. I don’t think the waitress that brought me my hash browns is particularly interested in labor theory, she just needs money.
Lol bruh, it’s tipping relax.
So we can just not tip right? Because its just tipping and we should relax.