To be clear, we’re also aware that repeatedly being exposed to this kind of conversation can be demoralizing as well. I watched this happen on another website where the just asking questions crew would show up in every goddamn thread about every identity that wasn’t ciswhitemale. I remember a specific thread asking for women to talk about what’s hard for them, which was both dominated by male voices before any women showed up and then when women actually talked about the problems they experienced (and deeply couched their language, I might add), they were met with an endless line of men insisting “that’s not me”.

So to be absolutely clear, we value your voice and we don’t want to lose the community we’ve built here either. If this is ever frustrating to see, please vent about it. I can’t promise I’ll be perfect, but I’m trying my best to avoid tone policing (I’ve already screwed this up a few times, and I apologize deeply to anyone I scared away), especially on issues which directly effect or marginalize your experience. I think it helps a lot to have such a diverse set of responses, because often people are unaware how deeply frustrating and exhausting fragility and managing other’s emotional state can be, especially when you are on the receiving end of marginalization.

This has been addressed ad nauseum in this post.

Words are entirely made up. You are bringing social connotations to the definition of the word unfortunate. The person who used the word clarified how it was meant to be used. Your ‘charitable interpretation’ has been both definitively proven already. We’ve asked for people to treat each other with good faith in this space and have requested that you ask questions rather than assume bad faith unless it’s unequivocally clear they are spreading hate speech. This is outlined in our philosophy docs and is generally nice behavior.

I understand that you are upset, but I’d ask of you and anyone else reading this to stop creating the same conversation again in another place on this post.

[edit: on re-reading, the sentence that followed it that said “I think there’s outreach to be done” is clear, even if I think the words could have been ordered better for flow, and connect this more directly and closely to the “unfortunate” comment.]

The charitable interpretation of it is that we need to be intentionally welcome and aware of POC in the community

Yeah, I think as written it implies too much to be interpreted unambiguously. I agree, the charitable interpretation is “we need to do more” but that’s an inference that is drawn from my pre-existing understanding of beehaw’s management and vision, and maybe a sprinkling of trust in their intentions.

Without explicitly stating “unfortunately we failed to reach minority communities,” my feeling is that it leaves a lot of room for accusation of other parties for the “unfortunateness” of the situation or misreading of future intent, and personally I think that just leads to unclear communication.

Yeah, it’s easy to forget. A former boss of mine had a great coffee mug, it said… paraphrasing here but basically “when you’re used to privelege, equality can feel like oppression”.

I’m so happy to part of corner of the net that actually try to love your neighbor instead of hating everyone and everything.

I just don’t understand why you would want to waste the little energy you have to be an ass.

Basically… “Don’t be a dick” - Wil Wheaton

(Of yeah… the biggest fucking irony… got to love all the white folks working on a tan while still hating people of color. I mean. What the fuck? Almost everyone love a tan… but that’s just working on getting the skin color that bugs you… nutters)

Ok, sorry for the rant. I’m a bit drunk at the moment. Love you guys!

I guess part of me wanted to get away from the same pervasive US politics that’s plaguing reddit.

i hope you understand this but: asking whether people are white or not isn’t US politics, it might literally be the single most important sociological question in the world because whether you’re white or not for the vast majority of living human beings immediately predetermines a huge chunk of your status globally

IMO the interesting part is that this is not American politics. Ironically out of all the western countries, the US actually talks about it the most, but the legacy of colonialism and white supremacy is still taken as the default in much of the world. Most folks in Europe are quite blind to it since it’s really taken as the default. It’s a pretty global issue, but very few places do people openly confront it.

How does wanting to increase diversity result in fewer points of view?

Yeah, sorry, I gave an American example because I’m American, but Alyaza said it best… race and its significance is not an exclusively American phenomenon by a long shot. But I sympathize with American fatigue, we do dominate the discussion a lot 😀

I’m a cis white man and I felt no offence when reading that. I also embrace diversity and I’m curious why you don’t?

We could build a community of men, each having a unique points of view, but none of them would be a woman’s.

The interesting thing about words is that we made them all up. Different people feel very differently about certain words in certain contexts. Slang and vernacular are perfect examples of this - we learn how people are using existing words in new ways all the time, and we adjust appropriately. What people don’t always recognize, however, is that words fall in and out of fashion constantly and how they are applied are also cultural artifacts. Prolific artists, famous movies, and important political figures all shape the way we interpret specific words - the cultural zeitgeist controls more than we are often aware.

Rather than assuming that unfortunate means it must be negative, because that’s the experience you’ve had when that word was used around you, I’d suggest asking questions and assuming good faith. You could ask what do you mean, when you use the word unfortunate before jumping to conclusions. Perhaps English isn’t the posters first language, or perhaps English in the country they are from use the word unfortunate in a very different way. Questions and good faith, rather than assumptions and escalation can quickly solve any questions you have and everyone leaves happy.

I think this is also a perfect example of why diversity is so amazing to be around and experience because you get exposed to so many more ways to utilize language, so many different backgrounds, and so many diverse points of view 😄

That’s true. I don’t think all white folks, or men, or any other category of people is a monolith - but just that hearing, for example, a woman’s POV - especially a Black woman’s POV, or a trans woman’s POV - on gender disparity in sports is a voice I really want to hear in that discussion, since those folks might have a very specific take on the topic. Even if everyone else in the discussion is a man - and I assume they WILL be men from a wide range of cultures, language communities, sexual orientations, etc. - still, none of them can bring the particular nuance that (in this example) a woman can.

I could get a lot more political on this, but I think that’s really the heart of the issue. I believe admins are saying “we have a majority group here in these ways, and while that’s not unexpected, it’s unfortunate that we’re pretty one-sided in those categories of folks right now - so we want to try and change that.”

However, I want to acknowledge that the tendency to single out white people and men, in particular, is kind of a thing right now, which - speaking from my lived experience as a white person - can feel real bad in the immediate moment. Nobody wants to feel unwelcome or like their existence is problematic. Unfortunately, the world is set up in ways where certain groups of folks (usually white, usually men) are repeatedly asked their opinion on things, or given the power to make decisions over the lives of people from completely different backgrounds. Assuming everybody is engaging in good faith, it’s more about making sure everybody has a seat at the table and less about “your very existence is problematic and you should be shunned.” Yes, some people mean that when they say it, but again, that does fuck all to foster a healthy discussion space (again, within reason here - fuck fascists and so on). How tf is a woman (for example), regardless of the diversity of her lived experiences, ever going to be able to speak to men’s mental issues and the crisis of care going on there? Like, a thousand women, all of them from widely different cultures and backgrounds, could never bring the personal nuance necessary to truly discuss that important issue.

Do marginalized people sometimes vent by making sweeping generalizations? Sure. Does that promote open and healthy discussion? No. But not every space is a discussion space, and I try to stay open-minded when I’m met with that energy. People are hurting; sometimes they talk shit. And this goes both ways - folks can end up defensive after hearing people talk shit constantly. That’s completely natural, but I truly don’t think that’s the case here. And Beehaw is young - there’s still lot of growing to do. That this survey was even launched makes me feel like Beehaw’s future is pretty bright.

Honestly? Yes, kinda. Ancestry is a lot more a cultural phenomenon than a genetic one.

As an American, there isn’t any official paperwork I’ve ever seen in the US that requests, let alone requires, my skin tone or race, with the sole exception of the US census and the occasional optional and anonymous EEOC questionnaire that some job applications have, neither of which record anything to do with skin color or appearance.

Uh, outside of census data, no, I don’t think ethnicity or colour of skin is in us documents. The discrimination does not come from law targeting based on ethnicity but usually the characteristics of the social group that are inherited from segregation and slavery.

Also, yes, there is no definition of white, it’s why we phrased it “do you consider yourself white?”.

In this context it’s mainly shorthand for privilege because white includes most European ancestry. I can’t speak for everyone here but I absolutely love diversity and I’m thrilled we have such good representation on so many levels but this is a good potential target for improvement.

What could be offputting about this? I don’t get it.

Allowed communities, moderation styles, etc. If you find that certain demographics are not eager to participate it might suggest an issue with moderation.

Maybe there have been a lot of issues with these people you call ‘white’

I don’t think that’s the implication at all. They’re not saying ‘white’ people are bad. They’re expressing concern that they might be hosting a place that isn’t sufficiently welcoming to others.

You seem to go out of your way to read and response to everything in the most argumentative way possible. Basically every comment I see from you is this way. In case you are not aware, people are not obligated to talk to you. Please discover a new way to interact with people.

Calling it oppression Olympics to desire diverse representation is such an astonishingly bad faith interpretation and self report.

it’s astonishing how frequently the worst takes on our instance come from kbin federation chuds who don’t seem to understand where they are

I think you might be replying to the wrong message but I appreciate the suggestion.

Maybe something along the lines of “Do you identify as someone of an ethnic minority?” or “Have you ever experienced discrimination based on skin color or apparent ethnicity?” Not perfect by any means, but some food for thought.

It definitely is a tricky subject to work with. I think the survey was decently sensitive, but while I appreciate the thought behind this post, there probably should have been more care with and input on how it was worded, even if that added input is just having a couple people from outside US/Canada/Western Europe look it over and give opinions.

the problem with suggestions like this is we did think about this, and there is a reason we phrased it this way on the survey. you are kind of presuming we just winged this wording–we did not. you make suggestions for alternatives, but i assume for example you don’t want ethnic Hungarians in Romania or white Afrikaners answering that they’re ethnic minorities for the purpose of what we’re asking here (whether or not they’re white–both groups are very much so). i also assume you also don’t want white people to say they’re oppressed in American society for not being the center of the universe (because many white people do think reverse racism is real, and a real problem). both of those are off the cuff examples of big problems with your proposals—and indeed every alternative we’ve heard so far runs into being far more Anglo- and ethno-centric than what we put here.

Don’t worry, you’ve been kind every time I’ve seen a message from you and I wouldn’t ascribe someone else’s comments onto another.

We’ve been thinking it over and I think the best way to make that question clearer would be to ‘double down’ on the concept of whiteness as a form of purity. It’s not ideal but it would probably answer the question for people who are questioning - the answer is probably non-white. If we add mixed then it just confuses the results more than it does make the data more actionable.

The other choice we’d have is likely to define ethnicity but that is almost certainly going to be a lot less actionable and hell to pick a condensed list especially from a non-US point of view.

Thank you for your continued support!

I’m aware? You acted like people would choose the wrong choice.

Your “white” class is still the rich minority, so if they fell for the wrong choice, it will still be helpful to show the number of people who are privileged.

You PLEASE look up global colonization and how it effected every culture plz. Don’t talk down to me. Your intentions sound like they are to cause trouble not to be helpful.

I’m as white as driven snow and I took that as “it’s unfortunate we don’t have more diversity in this area”

The entire point of white supremacy has been to make an in class which unquestionably dominates in all spheres of life.
There is no place white people are not “welcome”.
There is no space white people cannot go.

You can see in the response to (relatively weak) Covid restrictions of white people reacting violently to (likely for the first time in their lives) being told there was somewhere they could not go. And what did the signs they held say? “I Need A Haircut!”. They felt the withdrawal of not being waited on—being able to feel superior to someone—like a drug.

Further, a main power of whiteness is its invisibility. To not only have the freedom to go anywhere but to have that freedom never acknowledged or commented on. To never have to hyphenate. American. Not Mexican-American. British. Not Black-British. A person, who never has to consider that they are indeed “a white person”.

I would ask the imaginary white person referenced in your post if they are really being made to feel unwelcome by other white people asking if they’re white, or if they are experiencing discomfort at having to confront the fact that they –are– white and not “default”.

I would question how often they even consider “Am I welcome here?”. I would ask them to examine if they ever ask themself “is this a space for me?” or if they conversely tend to move through anywhere and everywhere with no thought to the idea they might be stepping on someone’s toes.

I’m glad we are 100% on the same wavelength on that, RiddleMeWhy.

Honestly, same here up in Canada; the expectation is “they” came to “us” and need to adjust to “our” ways. Scarcely do we take the time to put the effort into doing the same; whether that be in the form of actively trying to understand that culture, gender, or sexuality, etc.

The act of genuinely just acknowledging that there are other people in the room with different and valid viewpoints that, like or unlike, your own do in fact exist! Especially to try to consciously do this before you type your response, and be kind, speaks volumes to the room. It goes unspoken, though, the effort it takes to be civil, even when something upsets you. It just takes a moment to be kind.

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Awesome, thanks so much! Looks like the server is too busy to save my changes so I’ll try again later. The pronoun link is a great idea.