I think maintaining your values is important. Especially when so many have been eroded in the name of winning a thinking majority. Labour hasn’t been a flag waving party since World War 2. In fact that kinda stuff has been left to the likes of the Farage’s.
As a different flag waving Labour PM once said, ‘There’s only one Labour tradition I never liked: losing’.
Labour’s values are British values, and vice-versa. I’m not saying this in a jingoistic way, but our particular form of social democracy is a part of how we see ourselves as a country, and Labour is obviously a part of that. There’s no harm in saying we like this country and no possible good can come from pretending we don’t.
Anyway, if flag-waving was something Labour was doing as far back as World War 2, I’d say that in itself makes it pretty traditional.
Harm would potentially be. Huge number of people who associate it with nationalism.
Parties like BNP EDL etc have given the idea a bad taste. Add the negativity that the “Soverienty” crap during brexit caused. Means there is a sizable % of voters. Seeing its use in political ads as negative.
Given the tory party media seems to be selecting articles designed to reduce labour turn out. I imagine many labour MPs are thinking why the hell help them.
A huge (and arguably huger) number of people associate it with the UK.
The national flag, and any other symbol, only become the territory of extremists if we cede those symbols to them. The flag can equally represent any number of positive visions of the UK and it’s values, and Labour should be well placed to do that if they stake a claim to it.
Children of immigrants etc non in the UK. Have valid reasons to associate the flag with those extremists.
Those same immigrant decendents tend to vote left. Due to the right also being closer associated with those same extremists. Had the Conservative history of imperialism within the UK.
The fact is. We have already ceded the flag.
An election. That has nothing to do with the flag. Is in no way the time to fight for its reputation.
And losing power due to failed turn out from those who see the flag as ceded to extremists. In no way helps you win back the flag.
Not to mention. Sorry but you are not in a majority. The vast majority of non nationalist voters. We just do not care that much about the flag.
You will need to win love for the flag among non nationalists. Before claiming it is not a call to nationalism in an election.
“We don’t care that much about the flag”, he says, whilst making multiple comments explaining how he doesn’t care about the flag and how they definitely shouldn’t be using the flag.
If people want to associate the Union flag with extremists, then that’s entirely on them. The flag hasn’t changed. It’s not like the Nazis changing everyone’s perception of the Swastika.
This is a valid viewpoint, but arguing what should be the case versus what is the case has to be a measured risk in politics.
Yes, the flag can represent positive values however in the UK specifically, the fact is that there is already a strong connotation of jingoism, nationalism, and imperialism associated with waving it, for the left wing in particular.
Thefore Starmer should know that while this decision may succeed in attracting positive public attention from those in the centre/right, many on the left will have a strong, innate, negative reaction and you can’t dismiss that reaction by saying simply telling people “you shouldn’t feel that way.”
The thing is, Labour has been the home traditionally of people of colour. Unfortunately the same people that wave flags often tell those people of colour to go home. Now you’re saying they should be made to feel unwelcome in order to capture people that at the very least, align with racists?
I think maintaining your values is important. Especially when so many have been eroded in the name of winning a thinking majority. Labour hasn’t been a flag waving party since World War 2. In fact that kinda stuff has been left to the likes of the Farage’s.
As a different flag waving Labour PM once said, ‘There’s only one Labour tradition I never liked: losing’.
Labour’s values are British values, and vice-versa. I’m not saying this in a jingoistic way, but our particular form of social democracy is a part of how we see ourselves as a country, and Labour is obviously a part of that. There’s no harm in saying we like this country and no possible good can come from pretending we don’t.
Anyway, if flag-waving was something Labour was doing as far back as World War 2, I’d say that in itself makes it pretty traditional.
Maybe waving the flag a bit more would have helped capture those people that don’t think beyond it? Does no harm, surely?
Harm would potentially be. Huge number of people who associate it with nationalism.
Parties like BNP EDL etc have given the idea a bad taste. Add the negativity that the “Soverienty” crap during brexit caused. Means there is a sizable % of voters. Seeing its use in political ads as negative.
Given the tory party media seems to be selecting articles designed to reduce labour turn out. I imagine many labour MPs are thinking why the hell help them.
A huge (and arguably huger) number of people associate it with the UK.
The national flag, and any other symbol, only become the territory of extremists if we cede those symbols to them. The flag can equally represent any number of positive visions of the UK and it’s values, and Labour should be well placed to do that if they stake a claim to it.
But given the following.
Children of immigrants etc non in the UK. Have valid reasons to associate the flag with those extremists.
Those same immigrant decendents tend to vote left. Due to the right also being closer associated with those same extremists. Had the Conservative history of imperialism within the UK.
The fact is. We have already ceded the flag.
An election. That has nothing to do with the flag. Is in no way the time to fight for its reputation.
And losing power due to failed turn out from those who see the flag as ceded to extremists. In no way helps you win back the flag.
Not to mention. Sorry but you are not in a majority. The vast majority of non nationalist voters. We just do not care that much about the flag.
You will need to win love for the flag among non nationalists. Before claiming it is not a call to nationalism in an election.
“We don’t care that much about the flag”, he says, whilst making multiple comments explaining how he doesn’t care about the flag and how they definitely shouldn’t be using the flag.
If people want to associate the Union flag with extremists, then that’s entirely on them. The flag hasn’t changed. It’s not like the Nazis changing everyone’s perception of the Swastika.
This is a valid viewpoint, but arguing what should be the case versus what is the case has to be a measured risk in politics.
Yes, the flag can represent positive values however in the UK specifically, the fact is that there is already a strong connotation of jingoism, nationalism, and imperialism associated with waving it, for the left wing in particular.
Thefore Starmer should know that while this decision may succeed in attracting positive public attention from those in the centre/right, many on the left will have a strong, innate, negative reaction and you can’t dismiss that reaction by saying simply telling people “you shouldn’t feel that way.”
The thing is, Labour has been the home traditionally of people of colour. Unfortunately the same people that wave flags often tell those people of colour to go home. Now you’re saying they should be made to feel unwelcome in order to capture people that at the very least, align with racists?