A lot of us come from reddit, so we’re naturally inclined to want a reddit-like platform. However, it occurred to me that the reddit format makes little sense for the fediverse.
Centralized, reddit-like communities where users seek out communities and post directly to them made sense for a centralized service like reddit. But when we apply that model to lemmy or kbin, we end up with an unnecessary number of competing communities. (ex: [email protected] vs [email protected]) Aside from the issues of federation (what happens when one instance defederates and the community has to start over?) this means that if one wants to post across communities on instances, they have to crosspost multiple times.
The ideal format for a fediverse reddit-like would be a cross between twitter and reddit: a website where if you want to post about a cat, you make your post and tag it with the appropriate tags. This could include “cats,” “aww,” and “cute.” This post is automatically aggregated into instantly-generated “cats,” “aww,” and “cute” communities. Edit: And if you want to participate in a small community you can use smaller, less popular tags such as “toebeans” or something like that. This wouldn’t lead to any more or less small communities than the current system. /EndEdit. But, unlike twitter, you can interact with each post just like reddit: upvotes, downvotes, nested comments - and appointed community moderators can untag a post if it’s off-topic or doesn’t follow the rules of the tag-communities.
The reason this would work better is that instead of relying on users to create centralized communities that they then have to post into, working against the federated format, this works with it. It aggregates every instance into one community automatically. Also, when an instance decides to defederate, the tag-community remains. The existing posts simply disappear while the others remain.
Thoughts? Does this already exist? lol
Edit: Seeing a lot of comments about how having multiple communities for one topic isn’t necessarily bad, and I agree, it’s not. But, the real issue is not that, it’s that the current format is working against the medium. We’re formatting this part of the fediverse like reddit, which is centralized, when we shouldn’t. And the goal of this federation (in my understanding) is to 1. decentralize, and 2. aggregate. The current format will eventually work against #1, and it’s relying on users to do #2.
… Are you guys for real? Since when is Reddit this centralized heaven you describe? You have r/news and r/worldnews. You have r/funny, r/memes and r/funnymemes and probably dozens of others I don’t even know about. NSFW subreddits are like on another level where every single NSFW category has like at very least 5 subreddits and people who post there crosspost constantly.
And every single other platform for commuities has the same situation - on Facebook you could have found groups NHL, NHL fans, NHL 4 life and like ten other NHL communities with duplicated names.
And yet when we come to Fediverse, the BIGGEST F*CKIN ISSUE of the entire platform is that there is [email protected] and [email protected]
It would be interesting to have a way to “link” to magazines/communities across servers so everything gets cross posted. That way the content should be less fragmented.
But that’s what federation is. What you are saying is that you want the servers to decide which community is the “official” community, then squash the rest. Knowing that some of the most heavily subscribed communities exist on a server with controversial mods…I like having the choice of alternatives.
For Lemmy, just like on Reddit, one community will rise up and be popular and the others won’t get traffic. If the mods on that instance are jerks, another will rise up in its place.
I didn’t say reddit was a centralized heaven I was simply pointing out that reddit’s model shouldn’t be followed strictly here. It’s a hypothetical design discussion, not a big deal. If you feel strongly enough about that you struggle to discuss without cussing at others in all caps, maybe you should log off and take some time to chill out :)
Holy shit, they said fuck and even censored it on the internet, the world is falling apart, asteroids are hitting the planet, and demons are overrunning the world… Oh, wait, nope everything is fine, weird.
some people use those words for emphases and are not even remotely mad, maybe that’s what they were doing?
Thanks guys, everyone has so much optimism and friendliness i was starting to worry that this fediverse thing was a cult. Glad to see that the assholes are all still here!
Yes, swearing means that person is very mad and that only, you can not use it for emphasis or comedic effect at all and if you swear at all that means you hate everyone and want the world to end.
glad I could learn so much today.
if the idea of seeing someone swear scares you that much I am not sure an open federated instance were any legal type of community can be made and shared between each other is the place you would want to be, cus sorry to break it to ya, people on the internet are going to swear. We are not on a playground in pre-school.
Wow it’s almost like we’re in a text-based platform where tone can be confused and there are certain markers we use to indicate tone. But that’s cool we can just resort to being smartasses instead of discussing like adults
“The ideal format for a fediverse reddit-like would be a cross between twitter and reddit: a website where if you want to post about a cat, you make your post and tag it with the appropriate tags.”
You just described Mastodon. Many instances stick to the default character limit which is still bigger than twitter but some instances don’t have the limit or the limit is much much larger.
The issue with tags is who’s going to moderate them.
The reddit model has an owner responsible for each community. Tags don’t, and as such the moderation responsibility over everything falls on server administrators.
I fucking hate tags.
I don’t think I have anything else to add to the discussion, just wanted to get that off my chest.
One thing that could help: We have the tech now to auto-suggest tags, even on images, video, and audio. If you posted a photo and then were prompted to simply Y/N a few suggested tags, would that be better?
You know, I’ve enjoyed hating tags for so long I’m super conflicted about this. On the one hand, it’s quite a useful idea and I like it a lot. But I would have to get over my, currently irrational, hate for tags. I might also need to have the tags hidden on any post, just so that my hatred for tags isn’t triggered on a post I would otherwise enjoy.
#ihatetags
I don’t necessarily agree that competing communities is something bad, especially once a “lists” and “sharing lists” feature is implemented. It’s only a matter of time.
I’ll agree and go one further: the idea of wanting to recreate Reddit is bad.
Most of us left Reddit because of the API crap, but I suspect most of us have not been as happy with the Reddit experience as we once were. The more you recreate a system that’s close to Reddit, the more you make it easier for influence campaigns, spam bots, and disruptive trolls to operate.
Federation, with separate but similar communities, makes it tougher for a massive bot operator to run a monolithic influence campaign. My hope is the design of the fediverse helps to defend against these types of attacks. My fear is the inexperience of server operators with these types of coordinated attacks makes it difficult.
Decentralization is a weakness of the fediverse, but it is also it’s most important core strength.
If an instance that you follow goes down, the rest of them are just fine. If it turns out that the admins or mods are nuts on one instance, especially if your home instance is still fine, you just migrate to something else.
It definitely means that things are a little bit more complicated on a day-to-day basis, and it it also means that you can’t necessarily have these massive communities with millions of people because people are going to be drawn to different communities on different servers based on a variety of factors. But as you said, that’s not necessarily a negative thing. It means that there’s a lot more things that would have to go wrong for the entire fediverse to become damaged.
I don’t really understand this sentiment from so many regarding how they long for “the reddit of yore”. As a user of reddit for 12+ years, I don’t really get the complaints… I enjoyed Reddit how it was a month ago just much as I enjoyed it when I started… perhaps even more so. Am I the odd one out, and if so, can someone explain?
I migrated to Reddit after Digg imploded. Here’s a few things I think were better.
Feeds weren’t filled with meme posts. Comments weren’t filled with quick one-liners to get upvotes. Back then, there was much more substantive commentary.
Now, over the years, I’ve subscribed to subreddits that contained the type of content I wanted, plus the default subreddits I was subscribed to as a new user back then are much different than today. Open Reddit using a different browser or a private browser window, so that you’re not logged in. How does that compare to your experience of 12 years ago?
Honestly, much of the things I don’t like are because of large entities wanting to influence social media. That same thing will happen (likely is already happening) to the fediverse. I just hope the distributed nature makes it more difficult.
I think that we should try to not create the same community in different instances, instead of that we should look for that community in existing instances and join it. So far I’ve realized the short time I’ve been in Lemmy, you can cross post between different instances and the local instance will show you if a post is also published in another known instance.
I think I’ve mentioned this elsewhere, but a lot of these issues of structure I don’t think need to be solved on content creator/admin side, but rather on the end user UI side. The fragmentation is good for the network as a whole, but as an end user, I want to group similar communities together into one. Let me bulk subscribe to cats, toebeans, kittens, etc. I’ll do that action once. Then if one of those goes defunct, I won’t really care. I also won’t really care which community I’m posting to (except to ensure I’m following the rules), because ultimately most of the savvy users will be mass subscribed to topics as well.
This preserves control (I can opt out of toebeans if I don’t like that community for some reason), while keeping the distributed nature. No one would truly ‘own’ the cat pics community as it would span across multiple instances and communities.
Communities with similar goals across the fediverse need to be grouped somehow. Any community called “[email protected]” should be linked to allow for subscribing en masse. Perhaps “topic buckets” could work, where you can either subscribe to an individual community or a “topic bucket” that includes all communities across the fediverse that are called “cats@” or “technology@” or whatever.
While groups (meta-communities) could be useful, it shouldn’t be based on named.
[email protected] and [email protected] are likely unrelated communities. Similarly [email protected] and [email protected]
But, also, hopefully there is a reason for the various similarly-named communities. Different moderation philosophies and rules would be expected. [email protected] might be focusing on local cats and [email protected] might be focusing on feral populations while [email protected] is about cute cat pics and memes.
This feels like a feature, not a bug, so I actually think we just need good “sidebar” descriptions that help direct traffic as things grow. Just like r/Trees and r/MarijuanaEnthusiasts helped folks find their place.
Reddit also had competing communities though like r/tech and r/technology or r/games and r/gaming
The solution is to somehow merge all the communities into one list for the user based on keyword or something. That way it foesnt actually matter.
my view on this matter, generally
fediverse currently is in its early inception, so it still need to “emulate” current flow of (popular) web service, so of course it will be some “un-ideal” for the “how the fediverse supposed to work” yet
but in time, when the “internet masses” get a grip of what and how fediverse works, the people will see that fediverse itself will show the advantages over “conventional” monoverse
it takes time, just like how today monoverse social media working, understand and get accepted by majority internet users
For some reason I suck at long comments, they keep getting destroyed when I try to post.
I had a long written out response about how when you have multiple communities on one subject, moderation responsibilities get dispersed and become easier for everyone. They don’t have to set up any division of responsibility on a single board, they don’t even have to agree on the EXACT same rules. They simply have to federate and link each other so that the community members know to watch for threads from each, comment where they like, and post on the one that is closest to their instance.
If we throw away the idea of “Redundant” or “competing” boards and just accept that we can have all these spaces coexisting, things could work out pretty nice.
I mean, instead of ONE Sherlock Holmes board that might discourage sexuality discussions and ban BBC Sherlock, you can have 3 that have slightly different rules, different mods but still federate with each other and give you 3 spaces to discuss Sherlock Holmes that are all reachable from your homepage on your home instance.
Isn’t the point of federation that those communities would federate and then have merged comments sections? Or am I misunderstanding how it works?
So I get the concern, but honestly I think in practice fragmented communities are fine. If anyone’s old enough to remember Fidonet and WWIVNet, they worked great – you had some “local” communities with a lot of duplication and fragmentation, but smaller so you could start to recognize people and have some semblance of a community, and then you had bigger networked communities that were more akin to Reddit forums. They were both good things to have; I don’t think it’s automatically bad to have many smaller forums that cover more or less the same topics on individual instances.
The tags thing sounds great too, of course – it could be a good way to discover new communities or browse everything related to some topic if you decided you wanted to.
Multiple communities allows for multiple approaches to moderation, and IMO that’s a good thing. Ironically given Spez’s latest “landed gentry” justifications for his actions, it really was a problem on Reddit that a subreddit name could be controlled by one guy and anyone trying to build a rival subreddit had to fall back to a less obvious name for it.
There’s an issue for Lemmy to support some form of “multireddit” that would allow multiple communities to be “merged” as far as the end user is concerned. Wouldn’t be surprised if Kbin has one too, I haven’t dug for it. I think that’s a better approach, that would let people include or exclude communities as they desired.
I was actually going to say this too. A system that allowed both macro level federation (instances) and Magazine level integration would be ideal. Not only does it have the advantages you mention, but it would also provide both fault tolerance for the community (if that slacker Melpomene forgets to pay their bills and [email protected] goes down, Facedeer’s [email protected] keeps the community alive) and would suit the federated philosophy well.
And what happens when both pay their bills, and a comment or user is moderated by Melpomene but not Facedeer?
Those are challenges to be sure, but…
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If both pay their bills, the Magazines co-exist and show up (if they choose) as a unified Magazine.
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A few options here. Maybe we offer different ways for Magazines mods to interact? First option, each magazine moderates its own users / posts, can remove a post or a user’s right to share to the instance (single user defederation.) Second option, moderators can agree to have federated moderator rights, so they (by agreement) can cross-moderate their magazines?
Ok, suppose there is a unified magazine. I post to it, now which instance hosts my post? Then my instance defederates from that of one of the two magazines, but not the other. Do I now see only half the posts? If I engage in a comment chain, will users on the instances that defederated from mine see a weird half-conversation?
I think there is a fundamental difference between centralized formats like Reddit and federated formats like this one. Trying to simulate one with the other will always be unsatisfactory. So if Melpomene and Facedeer really want to join forces, the best way is simply to close one community and let them comoderate the remaining one.
But this already works for magazines hosted on one instance. My understanding is that if we defederate, a copy of those posts would still be hosted on my instance, but further updates would be solely “my” instance’s version. The posts from the other magazine would remain as local copies, they would not be removed… they’d just be standalone copies for the defederated instance.
It also means that anything you post on here is also 100% out of your control, and even harder to scrub than it would be had it been posted on Reddit.
Data longevity is baked into the system. Keep this in mind when posting here.
Absolutely right. People should be aware of that and they should be careful posting PII both here and anywhere online. Maybe we need a guide to being semi-private on the fediverse and the internet generally?
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I think a link-aggregator format is perfectly okay for the fediverse, I think redditors wanting to interact with it just like they do reddit is the problem. Communities don’t have to compete, we don’t all have to talk in the same place if we want to talk about a topic, and probably shouldn’t. It’s the reason splinter subreddits exist, and those actually aren’t bad, they are just inherent to the natural course of communities. It’s less convenient, but if everyone isn’t happy and keeps fighting, they should go off and do their own thing. Having something in one big mega community means centralization, and the fediverse is decentralized. Aggregating all instance’s tags into one community automatically, and then appointing a moderator of that mega-community means them having a say over how other instances run their own moderation. That’s not how the fediverse does, or should, work. Fediverse gives you ultimate control over how things are run and which sites you want to talk to, should you run your own instance, and that’s kinda it’s whole thing.
You’ve been conditioned into thinking that centralized hubs are ideal. They have upsides, but also have major downsides. In the same way cities can be hellholes, frustrating, and expensive to live in. They’re very convenient, and pretty necessary for business. But people don’t have to be a part of a business ploy to have value, not everyone wants to or should live in a city. Different people have different needs, even if they like and want the same things.
aside: following tags on lemmy could be a perfectly fine feature, but no one person from fedi should moderate it, what’s shown should follow all federation rules in place for your home instance. It’s just like how you can search tags on mastodon and it populates from all federated instance of your home.
Yes, exactly.
One thing that really surprised me with people from Reddit flooding in was the sometimes severe amount of angst being generated by FOMO. The sentiment seems to be “If there are 100 communities dedicated to this topic, I’ll have to subscribe to all of them to see everything!” But this thinking ignores the fact that in super-sized subreddits, they don’t see even 1 percent of posts and even 0.01% of comments in such spaces due to the sheer volume of stuff being posted there.
Anyone who came to Reddit from forums, where stupidly massive forums were those that had like 10,000 users knows that nothing is missed by having communities larger than that. Many of us were on forums with 100 active users or less, and they were incredibly engaging spaces. We remember what it was like to actually get comments on our posts, and replies to our comments, rather than throwing something into the cacophony and hoping that someone pays it any notice.
And anyone who regularly trawled ‘New’ knows that in massive suberddits the same link or fundamentally the same post gets posted a hundred times as people race to be the one to get THE post on the topic and farm that sweet, sweet karma. It’s way, way better to have those 100 posts spread across 100 instances, where they can get attention from 100 different communities, and people can actually discuss them and engage with each other, rather than have just one of them rise to the top and a generating a comment section of 20,000 people fighting for visibility.
I expected these kinds of “how can I see EVERYTHING is everyone’s spread out?!?” feelings from Twitter people coming to the fediverse because how content spreads through communities on Twitter, via re-Tweets. I wasn’t prepared for it from Redditors, since I had kind of assumed that everyone on Reddit was as frustrated and bummed out as I am about posting things to active communities or comment threads that no one ever notices.
You’re right, Reddit totally never had a huge and unmanageable problem with fractious duplicate communities for the same thing, not at all.
I beg to differ there were multiple subreddits for the same topic (and I’m sure this was more accentuated when the site was in its infancy). I guess over time the community will crystalize around a single instance for a given topic.
I’m pretty sure @sarsaparilyptus was being sarcastic
Sarcasm lost on the internet, that never happens.
Yes it does, as evidenced by this thread
I’m pretty sure @lucidwielder was being sarcastic
I’m pretty sure @WouldYouLikeAnyToast was being sarcastic
i think the last person was being sarcastic :)
redditors bringing their complete inability to recognize a joke that doesn’t end with /s with them
I thought you were being sarcastic until you added “with them.”
