Is it not morally wrong to drink the milk of an animal that was forcibly impregnated and whose child was murdered for said milk? Why stop at vegetarianism?
It’s not clear here if you think that is the only problem with rape, child theft, torture, and murder. It’s not even clear whether you understand that a child has to be created, neglected, and abused for a mother’s milk to be sold.
I think cattle are moral individuals that have the capacity to be wronged. That is all. That doesn’t require that they are human-like people with full human-like capacities and rights. Just because a human is worth more than a cow doesn’t mean a cow is worthless and you can do whatever you want to her, doesn’t mean that a cow cannot suffer every bit as harshly as you can.
Giving different words to the crimes we commit against animals is a way of insulating yourself from the crimes you commit, like how calling cow flesh “beef” insulates you from the horror and cruelty you commit.
Coming in quite hot and using a lot of assumptions, my friend
Is there a serious problem with the standard agricultural practices of large dairy farms of systematic forced pregnancy, either destruction of the calf or adding to the birth cycle once old enough, and other layers of mistreatment that should neither be condoned or continued? Absolutely and we should all strive to get the whole process abolished.
That said, most cow breeds overproduce milk for their calfs needs and it is unhealthy for them to stay full at all times. Milking them is a kindness and until we can undo eons of selective breeding, needs must.
I have an endless list of problems with the agricultural world and its practices but the reality is if we all went pure vegan right now, more animals would suffer in preventable ways. Tapering off the demands for the products of big agriculture, especially by forcing the market towards small farms treating the animals with kindness, and working towards reversing the changes we’ve caused in the breeds that make them more product than animal is the best route to end exploitation of animals.
If you care about animals, shaming people does fuck all. Educating them without assuming malice goes a whole lot farther towards your point of view. Also recognizing that literal millennia of selective breeding will not be undone in a single generation and the process of reversing is slow and fraught with its own challenges that need to be addressed.
Tldr: educate yourself beyond the rhetoric and hanlons razor. Idealism is great for concept but will fail on the reality when put into practice
Oh, so you’re a vegan? You’ve gone through this and you’ve got lived experience on what makes people change? No? Oh…
So you’re an academic who has studied what makes people stop abusing animals, stop paying for their rape, torture, and murder? No? Oh, not that either?
Ohhhhhh, I see the situation now. You’re emotionally invested in animal abuse and you’re unwilling to examine your behavior from that perspective, so you’re going to look for ways to make it my fault that you abuse animals. I’m too aggressive, so you steal children. Fuck that. Grow up.
There is NO MORAL WAY to treat a vulnerable individual as a means instead of an end. What you are trying to do cannot be done.
It’s so fucking stupid to say that everyone suddenly going vegan would result in greater animal suffering. All those animals you are concerned about are going to suffer exactly the same either way. The difference is, in a vegan world, WE’LL STOP MAKING NEW VICTIMS.
But why am I even engaging with that in the first place, it was yet another canard, yet another strawman. The world is not going vegan. No one even brought that up. That’s not a real thing. It’s just a rhetorical distraction from the very real and present evil that you are committing, that you will do anything to avoid thinking seriously about.
The world is also not going to stop taking human slave, murdering humans, raping humans. This isn’t about what the world does, this is about your personal choice to enslave, murder and rape vulnerable individuals.
Is it not morally wrong to drink the milk of an animal that was forcibly impregnated and whose child was murdered for said milk? Why stop at vegetarianism?
artifical insemination doesnt need to happen for milk production
It’s not clear here if you think that is the only problem with rape, child theft, torture, and murder. It’s not even clear whether you understand that a child has to be created, neglected, and abused for a mother’s milk to be sold.
You cannot even accept “torture”? Really. Well then that clarifies your original comment.
they should be killed swiftly and painlessly
non sequitur
you’re clearly speaking from a place of ignorance, about what you want to be true. you should learn more about where your food actually comes from and what externalities are being paid by others because of your choices. right now you’re just brainwashing yourself so that you don’t have to emotionally cope with your cruelty and violence.
He thinks cows are people.
I think cattle are moral individuals that have the capacity to be wronged. That is all. That doesn’t require that they are human-like people with full human-like capacities and rights. Just because a human is worth more than a cow doesn’t mean a cow is worthless and you can do whatever you want to her, doesn’t mean that a cow cannot suffer every bit as harshly as you can.
Giving different words to the crimes we commit against animals is a way of insulating yourself from the crimes you commit, like how calling cow flesh “beef” insulates you from the horror and cruelty you commit.
Coming in quite hot and using a lot of assumptions, my friend
Is there a serious problem with the standard agricultural practices of large dairy farms of systematic forced pregnancy, either destruction of the calf or adding to the birth cycle once old enough, and other layers of mistreatment that should neither be condoned or continued? Absolutely and we should all strive to get the whole process abolished.
That said, most cow breeds overproduce milk for their calfs needs and it is unhealthy for them to stay full at all times. Milking them is a kindness and until we can undo eons of selective breeding, needs must.
I have an endless list of problems with the agricultural world and its practices but the reality is if we all went pure vegan right now, more animals would suffer in preventable ways. Tapering off the demands for the products of big agriculture, especially by forcing the market towards small farms treating the animals with kindness, and working towards reversing the changes we’ve caused in the breeds that make them more product than animal is the best route to end exploitation of animals.
If you care about animals, shaming people does fuck all. Educating them without assuming malice goes a whole lot farther towards your point of view. Also recognizing that literal millennia of selective breeding will not be undone in a single generation and the process of reversing is slow and fraught with its own challenges that need to be addressed.
Tldr: educate yourself beyond the rhetoric and hanlons razor. Idealism is great for concept but will fail on the reality when put into practice
Oh, so you’re a vegan? You’ve gone through this and you’ve got lived experience on what makes people change? No? Oh…
So you’re an academic who has studied what makes people stop abusing animals, stop paying for their rape, torture, and murder? No? Oh, not that either?
Ohhhhhh, I see the situation now. You’re emotionally invested in animal abuse and you’re unwilling to examine your behavior from that perspective, so you’re going to look for ways to make it my fault that you abuse animals. I’m too aggressive, so you steal children. Fuck that. Grow up.
There is NO MORAL WAY to treat a vulnerable individual as a means instead of an end. What you are trying to do cannot be done.
It’s so fucking stupid to say that everyone suddenly going vegan would result in greater animal suffering. All those animals you are concerned about are going to suffer exactly the same either way. The difference is, in a vegan world, WE’LL STOP MAKING NEW VICTIMS.
But why am I even engaging with that in the first place, it was yet another canard, yet another strawman. The world is not going vegan. No one even brought that up. That’s not a real thing. It’s just a rhetorical distraction from the very real and present evil that you are committing, that you will do anything to avoid thinking seriously about.
The world is also not going to stop taking human slave, murdering humans, raping humans. This isn’t about what the world does, this is about your personal choice to enslave, murder and rape vulnerable individuals.
The experiences of animals are REAL and MATTER.