Could you explain to me how biologically this isn’t factual? The baby doesn’t pop out with a penis and the doctor go “congratulations! It’s a girl with a penis!”
Fucking delusional, you want to shift your hormones and swap sexy bits as an adult? More power to you. Wanna let undeveloped children cause irreversible damage to their body because they had a phase where they liked to cross dress? Get fucked, it’s absurd we let 18 year olds even apply to college or vote.
1 in 1,700 people are born with both sexual organs.
If extrapolated to the population of the United States that is 10% of the population of Nebraska that cannot be defined in this manner.
Therefore, that statement is not biologically factual as thousands of people have both.
Since this is a UK forum, the UK has 40,000 citizens who cannot be defined male or female in this manner.
Onto your point about manipulating gender at a young age.
The largest number of gender reassignment surgeries are performed on the population I just described, without their consent, at birth. And believe it or not often doctors get it wrong.
Someone assigned female by a doctor as a baby, well turns out mentally they are a boy, a boy who had their penis removed at birth. That might have some affect on a person, I think you’d agree.
So with that in mind, I agree with you about one thing, that non-reversible gender decisions should not be made without the consent of the individual being assigned a gender, as doctors are currently doing to intersex babies on a regular basis.
So can we stop pretending that gender reassignement is the problem? It’s just a wedge issue designed and promoted to keep the lower classes divided so that we don’t realize what the rich are doing to us and this planet. I am not your enemy. We are allies. The enemy is up/down, not left/right.
Transgender people just want to exist. Is it an unreasonable demand to exist and be acknowledged? I think not.
I understand your sentiment and I dont want to come off as just “transbasher” because i have close both male and female friends who after college decided they wanted to transition. I don’t agree with their thought process but I don’t tell them or put them down for their choice because it’s their choice as an adult.
On the subject of intersex births, I find the 1 in 1700 to be very generous. Having a mother who has worked labor and delivery for the past 30 years in a large hospital, she has only ever had 2 instances where the baby was born intersex. And that’s out of tens of thousands of deliveries. In those fringe cases I think sure we can allow those to be allowed to transition because there is a biological reason evident from birth. But if you just have a hormone imbalance that doesn’t mean you need to block the natural course of growth to see “what you’d prefer”. Just let the body do it’s thing and when it’s done developing then mess around with it.
I understand your sentiment and I dont want to come off as just “transbasher” […]
You seem to be genuinely open-minded, which is good of course. So as you have been well-spoken and generous of thought, I will attempt to be with you as well.
[…] because i have close both male and female friends who after college decided they wanted to transition.I don’t agree with their thought process but I don’t tell them or put them down for their choice because it’s their choice as an adult.
The concept of agreeing or disagreeing with someone’s lifestyle is foreign to me, so I cannot comment on that. I do not view myself as a judge to voice an opinion on any person’s lifestyle.
If I live in a society where I can use my sole judgement to manipulate the lifestyle of others, then that means that other members of that society can judge and manipulate my lifestyle. I do not want that for myself, so I do not wish it on others.
On the subject of intersex births, I find the 1 in 1700 to be very generous. Having a mother who has worked labor and delivery for the past 30 years in a large hospital, she has only ever had 2 instances where the baby was born intersex. And that’s out of tens of thousands of deliveries.
You must realize that you are taking two missteps of reason here.
The first is anecdotal thinking by placing personal experience above targeted and broad research, the world is a complex place and while I have no doubt that your mother presents this information in earnest, it remains an anecdote.
The second is hearsay, you are not only using anecdotal information, but second-hand anecdotal information.
In my view, one of these errors alone would be enough to disqualify the validity of your point, and together, well… I have no doubt that you are an intelligent person and I hope you can see my concern here, would it not bolster your views to step away from anecdote?
Regarding the data, I cannot comment on the data itself because I admit I am not an expert, I fetched the values from the best information from medical institutions I could find. If better data is presented, I will amend my comment now and moving forward.
In those fringe cases I think sure we can allow those to be allowed to transition because there is a biological reason evident from birth.
I agree.
But if you just have a hormone imbalance that doesn’t mean you need to block the natural course of growth to see “what you’d prefer”. Just let the body do it’s thing and when it’s done developing then mess around with it.
I disagree, I cannot imagine the pain that transgender folks experience because I am not gender dysphoric, but I do know what it feels like to have someone doubt my experience of mind. Having experienced [won’t go into detail for personal reasons] a variety of mental health issues in my life which have been discarded by others as false because… they were invisible… it is difficult to express the anger that this conjured within me at being told that my own experience was invalid because the observer had not personally experienced what I describe and therefore to them it was imaginary.
Whether you have experienced something like this specific example, or not, I believe that all humans have had the experience of being told that we are lying (when we are not) and we all know how bad that feels. What is real to a person is real to a person. Brains are not computers. We are not purely rational beings. I think that it is fair to allow a person to take any action which 1. increases their quality of life while 2. not harming others and in my view gender affirmation behaviors fall directly into this category.
(or 5a.) Regarding delaying treatment until full development. Many biological processes are not reversible, so allowing the body to “do what it will do” then address the results afterward introduces many complications.
Someone who doesn’t want to be a man might be pretty upset when biology makes them 6’8" (203cm) and 300lbs (136kg) then society says, “Okay you can try to be a girl now if you want.”
So I’m fine with this stance regarding reversible techniques (similar to how I feel about puberty blockers… kinda neat how my views are symmetric both ways, right? ;-) ) because there is no harm done. But forcing a delay to full development is something that I believe does cause harm.
Side note, often it can feel that taking no action is a safer action because of how our brains work. But as is often said, “Not making a decision, is a decision.” Taking no action can be equally harmful to taking an action. I believe that this thought applies to our current discussion.
Lucky for us, the arbitrarily set age of developement (roughly 15-18 depending on country) is well within the bounds of avoiding this scenario. That said, everyone develops at a different rate, and I think we all knew the 15 year old that was taller and broader than most full-grown men.
I hope that my comment reads well, I may add some small edits of clarification but I believe that I have expressed the general idea. Have a nice day.
I like this comment. You put the argument into reasonable perspective and have genuinely shifted my beliefs a bit.
The reality is I will never willingly vote against any of these things in general election because in all honesty it doesn’t affect me.
But I do agree, growth development is variable, like how you’ve got that one guy in your freshman year bio class who has a full beard and chops. My only hangup is if you don’t make a decision is like the trolly problem. The growth is already on a set course, if you don’t intervene, is that really making a choice? Or because you’re actively NOT doing something is THAT the choice?
Alot of these issues be it trans/gay/illegal/whatever seem to be hung up more on semantics and word association than the actual issues which is stupid, and gets the movements nowhere.
I apologize again for coming off as ignorant, I’m logic dominant brain so alot of my arguments hit people the wrong way even if it’s correct.
I’m logic dominant brain so alot of my arguments hit people the wrong way even if it’s correct.
That’s a fat bowl of copium for “I can’t be bothered to learn how to reasonably communicate with people”. If you were actually logic dominant, you’d just fix the issue. Instead, you’re full of shit.
{I am mega sleepy so I’ll do some clean up edits on this tomorrow probably when my brain is working properly}
Tbh you never came off as ignorant, you seemed genuine and curious otherwise I would not have engaged. We are all ignorant of many things, it’s just a matter of how willing we are to fill that ignorance and how we react to discovering that ignorance.
Responding to another comment you made here.
I don’t really understand the emotional replies online either, everyone seems to be out to hurt others and I don’t understand it. It is so predictably vitriolic that I think that most of the rage is just bots arguing with bots to create the illusion of discord. Just a ‘hopeful’ conspiracy theory of mine… surely people aren’t so mean?
Sex isn’t gender and puberty blockers don’t cause irreversible damage.
You’re a shit person who’s spewing other people’s opinions and thus hate, because you’re too intellectually lazy to read about these things to grasp the even the basic concepts being discussed.
So please refrain from going around calling people delusional until you spend at least a single minute reading up on what you pretend to understand.
There’s a reason the term “transgender” is used over “transsexual”.
Ah yes, I’m a shit person for presenting an ideology different from yours. But please, bring up some semantics to break down my point, see how that works for you.
Of course you’re one of the “my ignorance is worth as much as your facts” people.
YOU don’t have an opinion that you’ve formed yourself. You’ve passively ingested ultra simplistic right wing rhetoric, because taking the time to actually understand the subject would mean you understand it and if you understood it you’d accept it because you’d know it’s know what that garbage rhetoric makes it out be.
But no. You can’t simply spend a few minutes on Wikipedia reading about it. You probably sat there writing that reply for 20 minutes, which you could’ve spent actually reading the Wikipedia article on the subject to understand why no-one agrees with “your opinion.”
What’s absurd is how you’ve formed a strong negative opinion despite it being pretty obvious you’re completely clueless about the details of the topic.
Kids aren’t just given puberty blockers immediately at their request. A lot of work is done prior, with the parent(s) and medical and mental health providers determining the validity of the situation and working with the child to determine the course of treatment, if any.
It’s fine to disagree, but at least educate yourself first. Otherwise you’re just another bigot.
You state that I’m clueless about the topic yet I’ve had not 1 but 2 seperate friends who I’ve been with through their ENTIRE transition one from 13 the other 19 both M>F
The first one was put on pb as well as a litany of other medications and supplements. The second i only recall estrogen and t blockers. Now fast forward about 10 years. 19 is now 29, and she is still one of my best friends. The 13? 23 now and absolutely regrets the decision and constantly posts Healthcare slam posts and self harm.
So please, tell me how to educate myself more you uninformed twat.
Wanna let undeveloped children cause irreversible damage to their body because they had a phase where they liked to cross dress?
This hilarious argument if wasn’t just a bad faith argument should be enough for everyone be in favor of puberty blockers, to avoid avoid irreversible change while the person matures and can decide what one wants to do.
I misread your comment and said something stupid :)
Can’t seem to delete comments on Lemmy, so I replace them with a single period.
Apologies for the false alarm.
To restate the initial point being discussed, “Humans are sometimes neither male nor female.”
An anomaly differs from the common, as you state.
But in this discussion, we are talking about “the existence of something” and not “the normalcy of something”. Those are completely separate discussions.
No one is arguing that being born between genders is ‘normal’ or ‘common’, in fact, the abnormalcy of it is what allows those who carry prejudice and hate in their hearts to hurt and kill these people physically and legislatively.
In short, your comment presents no information relevant to the topic at hand.
My comment is to drive home the point that if you’re a small enough minority, you shouldn’t expect the rest of the population to bend to your ideology. I carry no prejudice whatsoever, trans people can be as trans as they want.
My point isn’t that “trans people don’t exist” like you and many others just infer. My point is that un-fully developed children should not be permitted to cease that development because of an emotional feeling.
If you disagree fantastic, that’s why this is a point of contention. But to demonize and vilifiy those who disagree with you is childish and leads me to believe you haven’t fully developed yourself.
According to the 2021 census, trans people are .5% of the population. Jewish people are .4% of the population. Where is your cutoff for what population is too minor to care about?
There are so many flaws with this line of thinking which should be obvious to you, yet are not. I urge you to continue thinking this thought. Follow it to an actionable conclusion, then see how you feel about that conclusion. It may take you a few years so I wish you well on your journey.
Your parents failed you. Your schooling failed you. Your society failed you. You’re an adult and you don’t even understand the concept that uncommon things exist. Instead you lash out in anger at the notion that such abnormalities might be acknowledged.
Lash out in anger? I’m stating an opinion on a public forum. I very much understand these things exist, if you read my actual comment you’d realize that I have personal “lived experience” as you guys so loving claim. Get a grip and realize that just because people don’t agree with you doesn’t mean they’re wrong.
I’ll ignore whatever “you guys” is supposed to mean. I never brought up lived experience and neither did you in this comment chain. A person jokingly commented a rigid, universal claim. You asked for an explanation to how the rigid claim was incorrect. You were shown counterexamples. You replied by quoting a dictionary definition in order to emphasize that the counterexamples are less common than the supposedly universal examples from the original comment. This is, obviously, irrelevant to the logic. That is why I said that you were failed by your parents, schooling, and society, because those three things were responsible for teaching you to understand reality around you and to be capable of reasoning. Your idea that infrequency is the same as nonexistence shows a deficit in basic reasoning. This has nothing to do with opinion.
Could you explain to me how biologically this isn’t factual? The baby doesn’t pop out with a penis and the doctor go “congratulations! It’s a girl with a penis!”
Fucking delusional, you want to shift your hormones and swap sexy bits as an adult? More power to you. Wanna let undeveloped children cause irreversible damage to their body because they had a phase where they liked to cross dress? Get fucked, it’s absurd we let 18 year olds even apply to college or vote.
1 in 1,700 people are born with both sexual organs.
If extrapolated to the population of the United States that is 10% of the population of Nebraska that cannot be defined in this manner.
Therefore, that statement is not biologically factual as thousands of people have both.
Since this is a UK forum, the UK has 40,000 citizens who cannot be defined male or female in this manner.
Onto your point about manipulating gender at a young age.
The largest number of gender reassignment surgeries are performed on the population I just described, without their consent, at birth. And believe it or not often doctors get it wrong.
Someone assigned female by a doctor as a baby, well turns out mentally they are a boy, a boy who had their penis removed at birth. That might have some affect on a person, I think you’d agree.
So with that in mind, I agree with you about one thing, that non-reversible gender decisions should not be made without the consent of the individual being assigned a gender, as doctors are currently doing to intersex babies on a regular basis.
So can we stop pretending that gender reassignement is the problem? It’s just a wedge issue designed and promoted to keep the lower classes divided so that we don’t realize what the rich are doing to us and this planet. I am not your enemy. We are allies. The enemy is up/down, not left/right.
Transgender people just want to exist. Is it an unreasonable demand to exist and be acknowledged? I think not.
I understand your sentiment and I dont want to come off as just “transbasher” because i have close both male and female friends who after college decided they wanted to transition. I don’t agree with their thought process but I don’t tell them or put them down for their choice because it’s their choice as an adult.
On the subject of intersex births, I find the 1 in 1700 to be very generous. Having a mother who has worked labor and delivery for the past 30 years in a large hospital, she has only ever had 2 instances where the baby was born intersex. And that’s out of tens of thousands of deliveries. In those fringe cases I think sure we can allow those to be allowed to transition because there is a biological reason evident from birth. But if you just have a hormone imbalance that doesn’t mean you need to block the natural course of growth to see “what you’d prefer”. Just let the body do it’s thing and when it’s done developing then mess around with it.
If I live in a society where I can use my sole judgement to manipulate the lifestyle of others, then that means that other members of that society can judge and manipulate my lifestyle. I do not want that for myself, so I do not wish it on others.
The first is anecdotal thinking by placing personal experience above targeted and broad research, the world is a complex place and while I have no doubt that your mother presents this information in earnest, it remains an anecdote.
The second is hearsay, you are not only using anecdotal information, but second-hand anecdotal information.
In my view, one of these errors alone would be enough to disqualify the validity of your point, and together, well… I have no doubt that you are an intelligent person and I hope you can see my concern here, would it not bolster your views to step away from anecdote?
Regarding the data, I cannot comment on the data itself because I admit I am not an expert, I fetched the values from the best information from medical institutions I could find. If better data is presented, I will amend my comment now and moving forward.
Whether you have experienced something like this specific example, or not, I believe that all humans have had the experience of being told that we are lying (when we are not) and we all know how bad that feels. What is real to a person is real to a person. Brains are not computers. We are not purely rational beings. I think that it is fair to allow a person to take any action which 1. increases their quality of life while 2. not harming others and in my view gender affirmation behaviors fall directly into this category.
Someone who doesn’t want to be a man might be pretty upset when biology makes them 6’8" (203cm) and 300lbs (136kg) then society says, “Okay you can try to be a girl now if you want.”
So I’m fine with this stance regarding reversible techniques (similar to how I feel about puberty blockers… kinda neat how my views are symmetric both ways, right? ;-) ) because there is no harm done. But forcing a delay to full development is something that I believe does cause harm.
Side note, often it can feel that taking no action is a safer action because of how our brains work. But as is often said, “Not making a decision, is a decision.” Taking no action can be equally harmful to taking an action. I believe that this thought applies to our current discussion.
Lucky for us, the arbitrarily set age of developement (roughly 15-18 depending on country) is well within the bounds of avoiding this scenario. That said, everyone develops at a different rate, and I think we all knew the 15 year old that was taller and broader than most full-grown men.
I hope that my comment reads well, I may add some small edits of clarification but I believe that I have expressed the general idea. Have a nice day.
I like this comment. You put the argument into reasonable perspective and have genuinely shifted my beliefs a bit. The reality is I will never willingly vote against any of these things in general election because in all honesty it doesn’t affect me.
But I do agree, growth development is variable, like how you’ve got that one guy in your freshman year bio class who has a full beard and chops. My only hangup is if you don’t make a decision is like the trolly problem. The growth is already on a set course, if you don’t intervene, is that really making a choice? Or because you’re actively NOT doing something is THAT the choice?
Alot of these issues be it trans/gay/illegal/whatever seem to be hung up more on semantics and word association than the actual issues which is stupid, and gets the movements nowhere.
I apologize again for coming off as ignorant, I’m logic dominant brain so alot of my arguments hit people the wrong way even if it’s correct.
That’s a fat bowl of copium for “I can’t be bothered to learn how to reasonably communicate with people”. If you were actually logic dominant, you’d just fix the issue. Instead, you’re full of shit.
And here we have the emotional dominant brain. See how it skips the whole argument and focuses in on a point that has nothing to do with the content?
Fascinating creatures you are.
If anything you’ve just proven them right. Congratulations.
{I am mega sleepy so I’ll do some clean up edits on this tomorrow probably when my brain is working properly}
Tbh you never came off as ignorant, you seemed genuine and curious otherwise I would not have engaged. We are all ignorant of many things, it’s just a matter of how willing we are to fill that ignorance and how we react to discovering that ignorance.
Responding to another comment you made here.
I don’t really understand the emotional replies online either, everyone seems to be out to hurt others and I don’t understand it. It is so predictably vitriolic that I think that most of the rage is just bots arguing with bots to create the illusion of discord. Just a ‘hopeful’ conspiracy theory of mine… surely people aren’t so mean?
Sex isn’t gender and puberty blockers don’t cause irreversible damage.
You’re a shit person who’s spewing other people’s opinions and thus hate, because you’re too intellectually lazy to read about these things to grasp the even the basic concepts being discussed.
So please refrain from going around calling people delusional until you spend at least a single minute reading up on what you pretend to understand.
There’s a reason the term “transgender” is used over “transsexual”.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex–gender_distinction
Ah yes, I’m a shit person for presenting an ideology different from yours. But please, bring up some semantics to break down my point, see how that works for you.
Of course you’re one of the “my ignorance is worth as much as your facts” people.
YOU don’t have an opinion that you’ve formed yourself. You’ve passively ingested ultra simplistic right wing rhetoric, because taking the time to actually understand the subject would mean you understand it and if you understood it you’d accept it because you’d know it’s know what that garbage rhetoric makes it out be.
But no. You can’t simply spend a few minutes on Wikipedia reading about it. You probably sat there writing that reply for 20 minutes, which you could’ve spent actually reading the Wikipedia article on the subject to understand why no-one agrees with “your opinion.”
No, it’s likely you’re presenting the ideology because you’re a shit person. Change is possible though! Don’t lose hope
End of.
What’s absurd is how you’ve formed a strong negative opinion despite it being pretty obvious you’re completely clueless about the details of the topic.
Kids aren’t just given puberty blockers immediately at their request. A lot of work is done prior, with the parent(s) and medical and mental health providers determining the validity of the situation and working with the child to determine the course of treatment, if any.
It’s fine to disagree, but at least educate yourself first. Otherwise you’re just another bigot.
You state that I’m clueless about the topic yet I’ve had not 1 but 2 seperate friends who I’ve been with through their ENTIRE transition one from 13 the other 19 both M>F
The first one was put on pb as well as a litany of other medications and supplements. The second i only recall estrogen and t blockers. Now fast forward about 10 years. 19 is now 29, and she is still one of my best friends. The 13? 23 now and absolutely regrets the decision and constantly posts Healthcare slam posts and self harm.
So please, tell me how to educate myself more you uninformed twat.
Sure buddy. We don’t know those friends though. They go to another school. In canada.
This hilarious argument if wasn’t just a bad faith argument should be enough for everyone be in favor of puberty blockers, to avoid avoid irreversible change while the person matures and can decide what one wants to do.
.
Thanks for the ping. Well said.
I misread your comment and said something stupid :)
Can’t seem to delete comments on Lemmy, so I replace them with a single period.
Apologies for the false alarm.
I did not know that you can’t delete comments and had seen the single dot comment before. Today I learned.
In any case no apologies needed, it was nice to revisit the thread and see more knowledgeable people weight in :)
Let’s start with the basics. It’s not all XX and XY.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_chromosome_anomalies
Anomoly noun
Yes, well done. Exceptions occur naturally, everywhere.
To restate the initial point being discussed, “Humans are sometimes neither male nor female.”
An anomaly differs from the common, as you state.
But in this discussion, we are talking about “the existence of something” and not “the normalcy of something”. Those are completely separate discussions.
No one is arguing that being born between genders is ‘normal’ or ‘common’, in fact, the abnormalcy of it is what allows those who carry prejudice and hate in their hearts to hurt and kill these people physically and legislatively.
In short, your comment presents no information relevant to the topic at hand.
My comment is to drive home the point that if you’re a small enough minority, you shouldn’t expect the rest of the population to bend to your ideology. I carry no prejudice whatsoever, trans people can be as trans as they want.
My point isn’t that “trans people don’t exist” like you and many others just infer. My point is that un-fully developed children should not be permitted to cease that development because of an emotional feeling.
If you disagree fantastic, that’s why this is a point of contention. But to demonize and vilifiy those who disagree with you is childish and leads me to believe you haven’t fully developed yourself.
According to the 2021 census, trans people are .5% of the population. Jewish people are .4% of the population. Where is your cutoff for what population is too minor to care about?
There are so many flaws with this line of thinking which should be obvious to you, yet are not. I urge you to continue thinking this thought. Follow it to an actionable conclusion, then see how you feel about that conclusion. It may take you a few years so I wish you well on your journey.
Keep thinking, keep considering, follow the path.
Your parents failed you. Your schooling failed you. Your society failed you. You’re an adult and you don’t even understand the concept that uncommon things exist. Instead you lash out in anger at the notion that such abnormalities might be acknowledged.
Lash out in anger? I’m stating an opinion on a public forum. I very much understand these things exist, if you read my actual comment you’d realize that I have personal “lived experience” as you guys so loving claim. Get a grip and realize that just because people don’t agree with you doesn’t mean they’re wrong.
I’ll ignore whatever “you guys” is supposed to mean. I never brought up lived experience and neither did you in this comment chain. A person jokingly commented a rigid, universal claim. You asked for an explanation to how the rigid claim was incorrect. You were shown counterexamples. You replied by quoting a dictionary definition in order to emphasize that the counterexamples are less common than the supposedly universal examples from the original comment. This is, obviously, irrelevant to the logic. That is why I said that you were failed by your parents, schooling, and society, because those three things were responsible for teaching you to understand reality around you and to be capable of reasoning. Your idea that infrequency is the same as nonexistence shows a deficit in basic reasoning. This has nothing to do with opinion.
stares at you in ASD
also australian
also white
Oh look, i’m a hat trick!
The penis and vagina thing is basic biology. Like, high school basic. Sexual development is WAY more complex than that.
Do you know what also causes irreversible damage? Puberty in trans kids
Do you actually have a single thought that’s not an hysterical strawman argument?
It’s because we’ve turned being trans into a religion.