Why must every faction of Progressives attack each other. Bernie Sanders is the most solid progressive I know of, but Code Pink wants to attack him because his Ukraine support isn’t anti-war? I’m anti war. In particular I’m anti the war that Russia started by invading Ukraine. Anti war doesn’t mean just letting the bad guy do whatever they want. If so, then anti-war is pro tyranny, because they always let the aggressor invade.
One of the things that made me really like Sanders when he was first campaigning for president was when I looked up his record on American war and he had a voting record that tended to follow a quote from him that amounted to something like (paraphrasing), “War should be the last resort, but if a war is started, we need to see it fully see it through.”
It’s not like siding with Ukraine and getting into that conflict is supporting warfare. It’s seeking to prevent warmongers from profiting off a senseless war. The idea that abandoning Ukraine to just be invaded and allowing Russia to get whatever they want by force is an, “Anti-war,” stance is fucking absurd.
The left has always had its share of morons.
Well-meaning morons, but morons nonetheless.
The issue is that the centrist and right wing media latch on to the narrative of these fringe weirdos and pretend that they represent the entirety of the left wing, even though there are WAY MORE lefties who find them disdainful.
The left loves nothing more than to bicker over ideological purity.
The right falls in line
False narrative.
We have less than a dozen morons here. They don’t represent anyone but themselves.
Meanwhile we have entire factions of the Republican party at war with themselves from the Lincoln Project to the infighting in the House just this week.
All of them intend to vote for Trump in November, regardless of legal court findings, if they have any chance to vote form him, through legal means or otherwise they will all do it.
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The issue with any negotiated settlement is that how do you trust Russia to hold up its end of the bargain after 2014? They’ve shown that international agreements mean sweet F.A. to them if it gets in the way of their goals.
The only way we get out of this in the long term to push Russia out of Ukraine, and force an unconditional Russian surrender. That means taking back the Donbas region; that means taking back Crimea.
but he should also be calling for a negotiated end to this brutal war
Bernie is smart enough to know that you can’t reliably negotiate with someone as untrustworthy as Putin.
Putin has lied to the world more than enough times that nobody should trust any potential negotiation he is involved in.
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Because Bernie’s a lukewarm progressive at best nowadays and he’s incapable of actually influencing policy. The Democratic party is stuck in a rut caused by decades of neoliberal policy (which, for example, is why Clinton got so many resources during the Democrat primaries) and refuses to even consider a more radical alternative.
Voting isn’t working to actually institute change in America. Either the country needs to push more power down to the states, or it needs complete electoral reform to remove the FPTP system that got America into this mess.
Bernie voted for the bombing of Yugoslavia, he is not a “solid progressive”
Yugoslavia was invading Kosovo and commiting ethnic cleansing of Albanians at the time. Agree or disagree with how it was executed, it fits with the idea that he opposes the aggressors in war
Most of the ethnic cleansing happened as a result of the war. The intervention lead to an intensification of ethnic conflict.
The intervention was a key reason the war ended after multiple years of conflict and ethnic cleansing. Are you saying that ending the war caused more ethnic cleansing afterwards than was already happening? That ending war made things less stable?
The intervention also lead to many innocents (like the chinese embasy) being targetted and bombed by US forces.
I do agree that the intervention was likely needed in this case, but that intervention should not have taken the form of carpet bombing as it ended up killing people completely not involved in the conflict; Clinton even apologised for this and recongised it as a negative.
The tensions have never went away however, the campaigns of mass imprisonment have only put it to sleep for a while and if recent tensions are anything to go by, they are likely to escelate again.
My sources on this are reading and being friends with a few people who grew up through this war, it is a harrowing one and I would say that often times its better to have ‘no opinion’ on matters concerning this unless you have personal stakes in it. Thats not directed at anyone in particular, just more towards americans who use this conflict to score cheap points.
Source; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_bombing_of_the_Chinese_embassy_in_Belgrade
This source seems completely unbiased and trustworthy.
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Source: Communist Party of India
lol
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oh do enlighten us why the Communist Party of India is not a credible source
The war itself made things less stable and, arguably, more people died as a byproduct of the war than if the war had never happened.
The fact that things recovered (ish) is a convenient coincidence and not the expectation. If you look at other times the US or NATO intervened, you’ll see why it’s not a given that things will be more stable afterwards.
Well we can play “what if” all we want, but bringing it back to the main point of Sanders, you can argue all you want about if it was the correct course of action but his vote was to stop an invading force.
Sure, but that’s a perfectly valid reason for anti-war protestors to dislike him. There’s a belief out there that diplomacy can resolve most conflicts and that military force should only be used after diplomacy is exhausted.
There’s a reason the UN hadn’t yet approved an intervention.
So you are pro genocide?
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Modhat:
Unironically don’t assume people’s genders.
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THAT’S the war they choose to protest?
Presumably, antiwar protestors protest every war. Basically, a return to WW2 America’s policy of non-intervention.
That’s not the best way to sell it, me thinks lol
Turns out being anti-war protesters means they’re ANTI WAR.
What do you want them to do? Raise funds to send some missles over?
I guess Ukraine could just use hopes and prayers to get Putin out of their front yard.
I’m pretty sure that most of the solid anti-war protestors would expect Ukraine to just accept Russian territorial demands, up to and including complete annexation.
It turns into a reductio ad absurdum pretty quickly though. Putin didn’t seem to return Crimea or the occupied regions of Donbass and Luhansk when asked politely. Not even when asked sternly. Indeed, it would seem that when all he faced was stern disapproval he decided to come back for more.
There is no doubt in my mind that supporting Ukraine now is stopping more Russian aggression later. Besides, Putin can end this war any time. Just go back to the original borders. The only reason not to is his yearning for Imperial glory. The irony being that many of these anti-war protestors would probably proclaim themselves anti-colonialists.
Putin can end this war any time. Just go back to the original borders.
Exactly.
If these anti-war protesters want to yell at the people who can stop the war, they need to protest at the Russian embassy.
Then why are they protesting action that will end the war faster?
- WAR IS PEACE
- FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
- IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
You didn’t answer the question.
You didn’t tell me what action will end the war faster, other going to the negotiating table. Ukraine is running out of bodies to throw into the meat grinder. This is a war of attrition, and the numbers are not in their favor.
Wouldn’t providing Ukraine with more weapons extend the war? Their latest offensive shows they’re running on fumes.
You’re right, they should just roll over and accept Russian domination.
Their comment, of course, was overly simplistic. I’m sure what they meant was “then why are they protesting action that will end the war in Ukraine’s favor faster”.
If you only care about blindly ending war as soon as possible by any means necessary, you definitely have two major options. Either let the aggressor do whatever they want, or use overwhelming force to utterly destroy them.
Which is your preference?
If you only care about blindly ending war as soon as possible by any means necessary, you definitely have two major options. Either let the aggressor do whatever they want, or use overwhelming force to utterly destroy them.
Except this is assuming that the US is omnipotent. The US cannot use overwhelming force to defeat Russia in the conflict. That leaves only not supplying arms to reduce the length of the war and casualties.
So you prefer just letting aggressors do whatever they want, got it.
As anti-war as you or I may be, there’s more than enough petty dictators who are more than happy to be pro-war and fuck up the world.
So you prefer just letting aggressors do whatever they want
I dont have that principle, I think there are cases when you should and when you shouldn’t.
there’s more than enough petty dictators who are more than happy to be pro-war and fuck up the world.
I’m more concerned about the US. Why is biggest kid on the block when it comes to genocide and war so enthusiastic to supply Ukraine with arms?
Especially given operation AERODYNAMIC by the cia…
Except this is assuming that the US is omnipotent. The US cannot use overwhelming force to defeat Russia in the conflict.
Good thing pretty much every western country is supporting Ukraine’s defensive war effort.
Nobody expects the US to be the sole support for Ukraine.
Good thing pretty much every western country is supporting Ukraine’s defensive war effort.
How is that going?
We’ve sent billions to Ukraine, seems to only have ended in more dead people and little progress.
So I’m gonna come over to your house and commandeer 2 bedrooms. You can’t do anything about it, because that would be violent and non-productive. Thanks for the 2 bedrooms. I’m gonna shit on the carpet and in 10 years send my children to take the rest of your house. But again, you can’t do anything because that would be violent and non-progressive.
Because you know, wouldn’t want there to be any conflict or anything.
This is so brain dead. Let’s frame using your idiocy.
Russia is a house. Ukraine is a house. USA is a house. Russia gave up on their project of building a workers’ state and attempted to join the liberal capitalist world dominated by the USA. The USA sent economists to Russia’s house. The economic reforms killed as many people as though Russia had been invaded.
Still, Russia wanted to join the USA’s economic dominance. But, the USA had built a transnational nuclear military specifically to counter the Russian military. They staffed it with officers from the Third Reich. They built Operation Gladio, Operation Paperclip, and Operation Aerodynamic. These operations grabbed the most violent bullies in the world and protected them, put them into houses neighboring Russia’s house, and took the one’s already there and gave them all weapons and training.
Still, Russia wanted to join the USA’s economic dominance. They asked the USA to not expand NATO to its borders, sorry, to it’s front lawn because that would be impossible for Russia to defend against. Russia was run by a stooge that the USA controlled. That stooge hand-picked Putin under USA guidance. Putin continued attempting to appease the USA despite it’s bullying. Russia was trying to join NATO to ensure mutual security concerns could be discussed in committee instead of on the battle field.
The USA finally rejected Russia explicitly and kept training and arming bullies. Every time the HOA tried to ban the practice of glorifying the Nazi bullies in the neighborhood, the USA vetoed it.
The USA kept building more and more gangs and they kept building more supply lines and more weapons and more capabilities and finally tried to install those capabilities on Russia’s front lawn. During this time, Russia escalated its readiness and it even took military action to prove that if the gangs kept coming they would react.
The gangs kept coming.
Russia reacted.
Your story has absolutely ZERO relevance to the actual history of the situation.
Stop trying to simplify geopolitics into interpersonal metaphors.
In your metaphor what is the billions in human killing machines that NATO et al supply to Ukraine? Who would be the thousands dead and families destroyed?
I’ll stop simplifying geopolitics as soon as you recognize the right of the Ukrainian people to defend their land by whatever means is necessary. Every nation in the history of mankind has conscripted its citizens to aid in its defense. Russia will continue to take, and take, and take until someone shows them they cannot take freely any more. This anti-war absolutism is Russian propaganda designed to further their goals of illegal annexation of territory belonging to Ukraine.
You know what would have prevented that? Russia not invading Ukraine.
Yes, only Russia should send billions of dollars worth of human killing machines to Ukraine.
Clearly the solution is to escalate, sending MORE weapons! That can only possibly SAVE lives!
I can respect the desire for a policy of complete non-intervention.
cringe. It’s actually good to take action to reduce harm.
Is it actually reducing harm to fight to the last Ukrainian though? There were multiple attempts at peace that were sabotaged by either nazi paramilitaries or nato-member politicians. Remember when Zelensky traveled to the front to tell them to respect the ceasefire during Minsk 2 and they didn’t? Maybe the people sabotaging peace would be less bold knowing the US isn’t going to keep supplying arms.
Is it actually reducing harm to fight to the last Ukrainian though?
When Russia is trying to commit genocide against Ukraine? Yes.
Do you have a source for Russia doing genocide or are you just referring to the war?
It’s been widely reported by numerous nations and organizations. Search for “Russian genocide Ukraine” and you’ll see plenty of credible sources
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multiple attempts at peace
What were the terms of this peace? Do you have sources to back up your claims?
Are you not aware of Minsk 1 or Minsk 2? There are more but those are the big ones
No I am not. Would you kindly explain and provide sources for this and all your other claims?
I have never thought of the usa helping ukraine because they are interested in ukranian peoples lives. I see them fighting because gaining an ally with great resources and an excellent geographic position is important to maintain power.
They are also testing the new way of running a war between first world armies.
Perhaps I’m wrong but this war benefits american interests beyond being world police.
Or, and stay with me here, we have a blueprint from about a hundred years ago of what happens when you just let a powerful county annex surrounding countries. Spoiler Alert, they don’t just stop at 1.
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Psy-ops.
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No involvement other than the thirty-odd years of provocation since the end of the cold war.
C.J. Polychroniou, Dec. 23, 2021: Chomsky: Outdated US Cold War Policy Worsens Ongoing Russia-Ukraine Conflict
That totally justifies killing 50 people in a grocery store. Why would the US force Putin to do this?
If the US hadn’t continually expanded NATO eastward against its stated promises, and hadn’t affected a coup in Ukraine in 2014, and hadn’t flooded Ukraine with weapons under the Trump & Biden administrations, then the Russian invasion probably wouldn’t have happened in the first place.
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He’s a war criminal who bombed his own people within his own borders in order to get into power. There are virtually no leftists who are confused about what kind of person Putin is.
Then why are you - and Chomsky - making excuses for him?
Peace in Ukraine? Tell that to all the civilians in Bucha and other places that have bullets in their back, got executed against buildings, or were tied up and shot in the back of the head.
The russians even execute their own men with sledgehammers for being POWs. It’s like walking in to Sandy Hook mid-massacre and asking “Why can’t we all just be friends?” until you catch some 5.56 like an idiot.
Ukraine should invite these people out to the front to see what it’s like, and talk to the civilians in recently liberated areas. Have them talk to the survivors and families of Bucha.
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Telling the Ukrainans to compromise will never work. The russians will continue to kidnap their children and push Ukrainans into the sea unless they secure all of their land. And even then, they’ll be forced into an Israel-like state of constant bombardment from their neighbors.
It’s a shitty fucking deal. But the russian army and government are monsters. And the peace protestors that MTG cheers on aren’t on the side of the Ukrainians. Surrendering is not peace to the Russians. It’s capitulation.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Eleven antiwar protesters were arrested Wednesday after they occupied the office of Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) on Capitol Hill to demand the senator support efforts at diplomacy over sending further U.S. aid, such as weapons, to Ukraine.
Capitol Police arrested the 11 people inside the Dirksen Senate Office Building under a D.C. code that prohibits crowding, obstructing or incommoding, a Capitol Police spokesperson said.
The code is often cited when arresting protesters during peaceful planned acts of civil disobedience.
“Yes, Bernie should condemn the Russian invasion, but he should also be calling for a negotiated end to this brutal war,” Crystal Zevon, from Barnet, Vt., said in the news release.
A spokesperson for Sanders said the senator’s chief of staff, foreign policy adviser and Vermont state director met with Vermonters who were concerned about the war.
“The U.S. should support a just peace in Ukraine, based on the principles of territorial integrity, sovereignty, and international law,” Sanders wrote in the letter.
The original article contains 244 words, the summary contains 161 words. Saved 34%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
Supporting Ukraine IS anti-war.
It’s a war of aggression and the fastest and ONLY way to stop such a war is to stop the aggressor. Appeasement simply allows the aggressor to continue perpetuating or expanding their war aims.
The waste is trickling arms to them instead of surging it. We need decisive Ukrainian victory to spare the lives of Ukrainians and Russians from Putin’s war.
Wow, war is peace, literally
This is nowhere near as deep as you think it is.
