• Blake [he/him]@feddit.uk
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    1 year ago

    Clearly everyone should just let China do whatever they want to avoid war, if we appease them by expanding their territorial claims and avoiding conflict then surely everything will be fine. The politics of appeasement has historically been very successful.

    Edit: Stop replying please, I don’t want to waste any more time arguing with y’all.

    • CascadeOfLight [he/him]@hexbear.net
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      1 year ago

      Also “appeasement” is a made up post-hoc explanation for the western Allies’ actions before WW2, blaming the supposed naivete or lack of spine of the leaders for simply allowing the Nazis to make expansionist moves uncontested, rather than it being an intentional policy to get out of their way and try to direct them eastwards against the Soviet Union.

    • zephyreks@programming.dev
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      1 year ago

      The only territorial claims China has tried to enforce recently are to literally uninhabited lands (Aksai Chin and the SCS islands) and Taiwan (which they are still at war with).

      How much do you really care about a piece of rock with no people and no animals living on it?

    • freagle@lemmygrad.ml
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      1 year ago

      It is the USA that has been the target of appeasement. Every expansion, every death squad, every war crime, every black site, every assassination, every war of aggression, every single time the world appeases the USA.

      If you think the USA is appeasing China, your head is screwed on backwards. I know it’s a common trope for abusers to feel offended and attacked when their victims standup for themselves, and I know you probably stand with the victims and see through the abusers’ bullshit. You need to do that with the USA.

      Abu Ghraib - appeased.
      Nord Stream 2 - appeased.
      Solemaini - appeased.
      Iraq - appeased.
      Iraq 2 - appeased.
      Vietnam - appeased.
      Laos - appeased.
      Cambodia - appeased.
      Korea - appeased.
      Hiroshima - appeased.
      Nagasaki - appeased.
      Guantanamo - appeased.
      Libya - appeased.
      Syria - appeased.
      StuxNet - appeased.
      Pulling out of nuclear treaties - appeased.
      Refusing to be accountable to ICC - appeased.
      Refusing to sign landmine treaty - appeased.
      Agent Orange - appeased.
      Napalm - appeased.
      White phosphorus - appeased.
      Depleted Uranium - appeased.
      Yugoslavia - appeased.
      Afghanistan - appeased.
      School of the Americas - appeased.
      Wiretapping the entire US civilian population - appeased.
      Wiretapping every embassy through Siemens supply chain attack - appeased.
      NATO expansion - appeased.
      Economic shock therapy kills millions - appeased.
      Training terrorists - appeased.
      Airlifting terrorists into other countries - appeased.
      Environmental devastation - appeased.
      Sending expired vaccines - appeased.
      Refusing to send vaccines - appeased.
      Refusing to follow the predefined protocol for sharing vaccine research - appeased.
      Iranian regime change - appeased.
      Color revolutions - appeased.
      Extracting trillions from Africa - appeased.
      Child separation - appeased.
      Toddlers in solitary confinement - appeased.
      Forced hysterectomies - appeased.
      Collective punishment of civilians - appeased.
      Support for Israeli apartheid - appeased.
      Iran-Contra - appeased.
      Fast and Furious - appeased.
      CIA drug trafficking - appeased.
      Haitian assassination - appeased.
      Bolivia - appeased.
      Nicaragua - appeased.
      Pinochet - appeased.

      I can keep going if you want.

      • FaceDeer@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        Whatabout, whatabout, whatabout.

        You realize that if country A does something bad, “Country B did something bad too!” is not actually a defense of country A’s behaviour? Indeed, it just implies that you agree that that behaviour is bad.

      • Blake [he/him]@feddit.uk
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        1 year ago

        Fuck the United States. They’re easily the worst, most imperialist nation on the planet. But we’re capable of more nuance than “any country in opposition to the US can do no wrong”

            • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              I’m not a lib.

              Oh sorry, you’re an ultra, my mistake.

              How is it idealistically opposing everyone everywhere and never accomplishing anything?

              • Blake [he/him]@feddit.uk
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                1 year ago

                Why do you try to attack an identity you’re assuming that I hold, rather than addressing my actual arguments? Could it be because you’re incapable of actually successfully arguing against the points I’m making?

                And no, I’m not an “ultra”, though it’s quite a vaguely defined term, I’m not opposed to all of the structures that ultra-leftists are traditionally opposed to. Keep guessing, though. You’ll probably get it eventually. The world is a nuanced place and you shouldn’t try to shove everything into a convenient box to make it easier to deal with. That’s lib behaviour. You should know better.

        • freagle@lemmygrad.ml
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          1 year ago

          What the fuck is wrong with you? The idea that the USA could possibly engage in appeasement is completely undermined by the fact that THEY ARE THE AGGRESSOR WHO IS BEING APPEASED. When China pushes back against the USA they are not doing something wrong, they are doing something against the USA’s interests. When China doesn’t push back against the USA, they are appeasing.

          The entire analysis of “oh everyone is bad and therefore the USA shouldn’t appease them” is completely structureless. It’s all moron vibes.

          • Blake [he/him]@feddit.uk
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            1 year ago

            Thanks for your reply, before I address it, I have to ask, would you support it if the CCP government launched a military invasion of Taiwan?

            • freagle@lemmygrad.ml
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              1 year ago

              I would need to analyze the situation. The CPC has established it will not do this for any reason except to protect Chinese national security interests. If it turns out that the USA delivers advanced missile “defense” systems and other nuclear capabilities including submarines, air power, and other plaforms and assets, then it will be all but strategically certain that China will be forced to use military action to push the USA off the island and out of the surrounding waters.

              Given the analysis of the Ukraine conflict, it’s possible that China may need to include other considerations that I am not fully up to speed on about American capabilities and American proxy war strategies.

              In short, yes, I trust the CPC to only use military force when all other options for defense against the USA have been exhausted. This has been their policy and doctrine for a while and there are no indications of it changing anytime soon.

              • Blake [he/him]@feddit.uk
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                1 year ago

                Honestly, I don’t think we really disagree all that much in broad terms. We both hate US imperialism. I just don’t see the CCP as an omni-benevolent state which can do no wrong. Until the world is ready to fully transition away from capitalism, greed and totalitarianism, it is best to limit the power and influence of nation states. And that includes states which claim to be transitioning towards communism. Checks and balances against supremacy prevents anti-revolutionary elements from seizing control of the state and turning its power against the people. Let’s just agree to disagree, move on with our lives, and spend our energy arguing with people who still support capitalism instead.

            • rjs001@lemmygrad.ml
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              1 year ago

              You don’t even know the name of the party. Taiwan is part of China and will always be

    • TheLastHero [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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      1 year ago

      The 21st century indo-pacific is not a comparable issue to 20th century Central Europe. Also appeasement wasn’t even the complete disaster casual observers like to make it out to be (who still won the war after all?) but that’s beside the point here. Taiwan is not some defenseless independent country being threatened by the reincarnation of Hitler calling for world domination. It’s a part of China that broke away in an ideological civil war that China wants back. Even the US state department acknowledges this fact, yet they still believe it is very important that they protect one part of China from another part of China and extend their civil war which should have ended for good decades ago. This is not an act of peace or charity, this is creating a conflict situation, with Taiwan right in the center of any potential explosion.

      See, the US doesn’t care about these concerns is because the real reason America is in Taiwan is so they can use it as a strategic base for operations to oppose and weaken the PRC, a “West Berlin of Asia” so to say. And somehow, liberals and social democratic opportunists have deluded themselves into believing that stationing the most powerful naval fleet in history (US 7th Fleet) to permanently do ‘freedom of navigation exercises’ (armed provocations) in Chinese coastal waters is the “moderate” solution to this conflict. And I suppose we’ll just have to keep the navy there forever right? Or until the PRC finally collapses? (I’m still waiting lol)

      I say we should cut a deal with the PRC, let them have Loser Island in exchange for mediating other border disputes with their neighbors. A majority of Taiwanese citizens want more integration with China, and they’re still their largest trading partner. While immediate annexation wouldn’t be popular, a gradual process of integration would be best for the entire region. It would allow the two biggest military powers to step down their aggressive actions against each other, end the period of Taiwanese citizens being used as a geopolitical pawn, and provide a solid diplomatic framework to settle future disputes in the region (as this would be a massive rapprochement in Sino-American relations) This wouldn’t even weaken American national security (which is what everyone hates about ‘appeasement’) since it’s, you know, an occupied imperialist outpost on the other side of the world’s largest ocean, not even in America’s hemisphere.

      Of course this option would be totally unacceptable for the American imperialist apparatus, they would never be willing to lose such an important base in the Pacific (just ignore that they would still have Japan, Guam, Philippines, etc). So what’s going to happen instead is that the US is eventually going to get distracted and entangled in some other imperialist mess, because they can’t recognize their empire is hopelessly overextended, and China will just take Taiwan when they think the balance of power is in their favor. This would be the worse thing to happen: a chaotic breakdown of the region instead of a negotiated reordering. There will be decades of bitterness and calls for mass violence. Maybe it will also escalate and some ships get sunk and the nukes fly and oh well its World War 3. Beware those who call diplomacy ‘appeasement’ in the post-atomic age, they seek your death.

      • Blake [he/him]@feddit.uk
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        1 year ago

        How can you consider yourself anti-imperialist when you’re talking about unilaterally giving entire countries to other countries?

        • Doubledee [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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          1 year ago

          Is the Donbas a separate country because it declared independence from Ukraine?

          EDIT: Which is actually more than Taiwan has done, the government in exile on Taiwan considers itself the rightful government of the entirety of mainland China and parts of Mongolia.

          • Blake [he/him]@feddit.uk
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            1 year ago

            Way to just completely ignore my point and move the goal posts?

            Are the 13 colonies a separate country because they declared independence from the United Kingdom?

            Don’t bother replying. I don’t want waste my time talking to people who can’t answer a simple question

    • TomHardy@lemmy.ml
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      1 year ago

      These are the territorial claims of the government on Taiwan, from a state the US and much of the Western world support or at least de facto like to defend in Asia. They never made any remarks regarding Taiwan’s claims with 18 other countries. If the US supports peace in the Asia Pacific (besides looking at a map and asking why the US has even a say about Asia in the first place), then surely Mainland China must be supported, as by protecting & legitimizing Taiwan’s constitution, you’re approving this shit in Asia.

      But let me guess, neoliberal countries get a pass from the crackerverse?

      • Blake [he/him]@feddit.uk
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        1 year ago

        Holy shit, you’re telling me that both sides in a civil war think they should have full control of the country they’re in a civil war over? Hang on I need to sit fucking down my head is spinning

        • TomHardy@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          No, I think you need to read my comment and your’s again. You say appeasement politics will lead to no good, so… you protect the ROC’s claims instead, which is even appeasing more that just leaving China. I caught your illogical argument, and distilled it to the meaningless content that it was. Now you pretend stupid to run away from that illogical claim. But you can’t win against me, who studied at Oxford, Nato boy

          • Blake [he/him]@feddit.uk
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            1 year ago

            you can’t win against me, who studied at Oxford, Nato boy

            This is the most unbelievably embarrassing thing I have ever read on Lemmy. Honestly, if you regret writing this, please let me know. I will amend my comment to erase the fact you ever wrote it.

            you protect the ROC’s claims

            Please cite evidence of my support of Taiwan’s territorial claims. If you believe that opposing CCP imperialism means that one must also support Taiwanese territorial claims then you have made an incorrect assumption - and a converse error on your part does not constitute a failure on mine.

            I’m very sorry that I refuse to defend the strawman you so thoughtfully prepared for me. By all means, whack away at him. I would suggest that you take your own advice, by the way, and read my actual comment and respond to the text of what I wrote, not some imagined subtext your Oxford-educated brain conjured to allay your cognitive dissonance. Oh, and one last thing - whatever your parents paid for that education, unfortunately it would appear to have turned out a poor investment.

            • TomHardy@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              Then get prepped, cause I did my postgraduate at MIT as well. There are no smarter guys than those graduating there. I knew you would now claim “where did I said we need support Taiwanese territorial claims mimimi”. Did you read the article and what it is about? What is the US and what is China’s point of conflict? Tell me, how can you say “we can’t appease China blabla…” to do what? Taiwan is the exact part of their sovereign terrorial claims. Opposing them on the fact that Taiwan becomes/remains independant is exactly enabling the territorial claims of the state on that island, ROC.

              And now you backpedal, “I’m commenting on the article but in fact I do not support US point of view and argue without the context of any article we comment on!!!1! Its my isolated opinion from those events and blabla” or “Actually I meant we should oppose China but also make demands on Taiwan’s contitution and put conditions on their clams blabla…”. I know that if you would understand any of this conflict or history you wouldn’t actually call under the article of US warmongering, encirclement and violation of the One-China policy regarding China’s claim of Taiwan, an act of “CCP imperialism”. But know you backtrack and try to slip away like a oily snake. There is no escape from my superior arguing skills, and you’re critic of appeasing hypocritical is false even on the level of formal logics.

              whatever your parents paid for that education, unfortunately it would appear to have turned out a poor investment.

              This is the real strawman in this thread.

              • blazera@kbin.social
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                1 year ago

                oh my god he’s got the 1’s mixed in with exclamation marks, god thats old school childish

        • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          Civil war is when two sides of a nonviolent conflict peacefully negotiate reintegration.

          Better send weapons to Taiwan!

            • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              No, but if it weren’t for Western provocations that would never have been on the table. What do you think giving weapons to Taiwan does? China will not tolerate an arms buildup in Taiwain, it will attack as a result. That’s not good and I don’t support it, but that’s the material reality that you refuse to accept.

        • TomHardy@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          Well, if they are so democratic, and support other nations sovereignty as they would like their own, why don’t they remove them from their constitution? I have a feeling you have no idea of the ideology of the state on that island.

          • blazera@kbin.social
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            1 year ago

            So no actions needing attention like we’re giving to China for threatening the sovereignty of other independent nations.

            • TomHardy@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              Wdym? I said it does not make sense to say appeasement politics is bad but then by supporting the government on Taiwan, and appeasing their claims. If anything we need to define sovereignity first and then support a side on conditions. Which are obvioulsy not made regarding Taiwan’s claims because of Westerners lust for hegemony.

              • blazera@kbin.social
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                1 year ago

                the only claim being appeased is to what they already control, Taiwan. That’s their country. I asked for specific actions being taken by Taiwan to take territory from sovereign nations. What other claims are we appeasing? Has there been military action against Mongolia, or Japan, that we are hypocritically ignoring? What threat to other nation’s sovereignty are we ignoring from Taiwan?

                • TomHardy@lemmy.ml
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                  1 year ago

                  the only claim being appeased is to what they already control, Taiwan

                  That’s not true, or at least what I would argue. You can point me to any article where some Western politician is saying “as long as Taiwan want it’s island we support that, but not more than that”. In fact, I don’t know of any conditions the US or anybody who defends Taiwanese independence, is making regarding their claims. There is no “Taiwan only” constitution that the US supports. This is the needle in the ass of the PRC. I think it would be a different situation, if Taiwan (and the US) would say "we want Taiwan to be its own country, and we recognize the PRC as the successor of China.

                  But they don’t do that. They actually support the ROC and everything on their constitution. Including the 11-dash line in the South China Sea, that is larger than what China is drawing with their 9-dash line That they are for the “will of the Taiwanese to just be independant on their island” is for the public of the G7 countries. Nobody is willing to give up the territories of ROC afaik. Yes the ROC can’t do anything about it in terms of military power, but they equally don’t make any steps to remove them. (But I think if the US tells it’s guys at the DPP to create such a constitution that claims only the island of Taiwan, they will only do it to provocate an attack by China. But that’s beyond my point and the map above.)

  • Deceptichum@kbin.social
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    1 year ago

    China creates conflict with all its neighbours and tries to steal their territorial waters.

    China threatens the existence of an independent Taiwan.

    China commits literal genocide against Uyghurs

    And it’s the US starting shit this time? Give me a fucking break imperialist sympathisers.

    • So first, the US having military bases surrounding China is tied into why they disagree with their neighbors. They allowed the US on the boarder so it makes sense they aren’t stoked about it. The US has at least 750 military bases around the world in 80 countries. The next closest country has 145 bases and thats the UK. If we want to reference imperialism, then starting with the US is the most practical based on this alone.

      In addition, only 12 countries consider Taiwan as an independent country. Regardless if this is correct, the actions the US has recently taken with Taiwan is without question increasing tension in an already tense situation.

      Furthermore, following the numbers on the Uyghur women being forced to have contraception implants would mean each woman has 8 impants. This makes absolute zero sense. The fact the US media’s primary source on the Uyghur situation is an outright lunatic does help make it all add up though.

      All in all, it takes two to tango for sure. Yet the US seeing it’s global power drastically decline makes their moves less obfuscated and vividly more desperate.

        • §ɦṛɛɗɗịɛ ßịⱺ𝔩ⱺɠịᵴŧ@lemmy.mlOP
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          1 year ago

          If you’re concerned about human rights, why gloss over the US being notorious for human rights abuse? They have the largest prison population ever, comprised primarily of minorities who were obscenely experimented on during MK Ultra. Plus the prior and current treatment of Native Americans or the 6,000,000+ innocent citizens killed in the war on terror. The US is no longer even classified as a first world country. But it doesn’t matter cause the news said the US is definitely the best choice for the world police.

          Are you for bombing Mexico to stop the opioid crisis too? While the idea is gaining traction stateside, it takes minutes to understand of the 14,000+ pounds of fentanyl seized at the Mexican boarder in 2022, over 90% was from US citizens. But logic is totally overrated when it comes to international law I guess.

    • regul@lemm.ee
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      1 year ago

      Explain why any of that is the US’s problem or necessitates a response from the US at all.

      • Silverseren@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        The well-being of the world should be everyone’s problem. It’s just that with the largest economy and comparative power in the world, the US has a greater responsibility than most. Queue the Spiderman quote.